Help...is this relationship doomed?

[river1731]

My girlfriend and I, Christine, have been together for about 2 and a half years, and have been living together for the past year.....and I'm and trying to figure out whether she is truly ready for a long-term relationship. In fact, I've been trying to figure this out ever since we started dating, and before you know it, more than two years have gone by. The reasons why I am questioning her ability to function in a romantic long-term relationship has to do with the following observations and conditions:

1.Affectionless and Asexual Disposition: In the first year, Christine and I had sex maybe about 10 times, and since that time, it has completely tapered off. Throughout the whole time with her, her ability to deliver warm and loving affection of even the simplist kinds has been limited (ie: she rarely initiates a kiss with me, never kisses me goodnight but expects me to do so to her, and even her hugs lack a warmness). I raised the issue of the lack of sex and ended up discovering that Christine really does not like sex, however she is not----i repeat, not----a lesbian. I then was exposed to the whole universe of Asexulality, a sexual orientation that descibes Christine to a tee. I continue to struggle with the prospect of being with someone who has this orientation, however I am making a sincere effort to focus on the other key ingredients of a relationship, and am willing to overlook the lack of sexual contact.

2. Poor Communication and Intimacy: In short, Christine's initimate communication skills are extremely poor, and the problem is that I yearn for having a rich and emotionally connected conversation with my primary partner. For whatever reason, she is feels very uncomfortable discussing the "important stuff" with me.

3. Feeling that am Competing with her Girlfriend: This issue is perhaps the most worrisome dynamic that is taking place in our relationship. Bascially, Christine has a female best friend, Dianne, who I feel like I am competing with for the time and emotional energy of Christine. It seems that Christine is using Dianne as an outlet for the emotional intimacy and communication that she doesn't give to me. And it seems that Dianne is turning around and using her relationship with Christine as a surrogate relationship, as she does not have a boyfriend, and has been unable to recover from the loss of a her boyfriend 4 years ago in a tragic event, and for which she didn't receive grief counselling. To make matters worse, Christine suffered her own sexual trauma in her teenage years, for which she, too, did not receive counselling. So, the picture I am seeing is that of two women, ages 30 and 31, who have both experienced traumatic events without grief counselling, and one of them is in a relationship with me that is suffering.
Dianne phones Christine non-stop, pretty well at least twice a day, and it seems that whatever few conversations I am able to have with Christine, she always brings up Dianne, almost as if that is where her energies and focus lie.
It's getting to the point where I sometimes feel that Christine now talks to me with the same conversational style that she uses with Dianne, almost as if she can't distinguish which person she is having the intimate relationship with. It is extremely bizarre, and I am very very confused, almost wondering if I should issue Christine an ultimatum to either be with me or Dianne. Am I being too sensitive or jealous here? I tend to think of myself as a very flesible and secure person, but if any of you see any signs of jealousy, please let me know.

Based on all of this information, do you think that I am in an initmate relationship, or is it merely a fraud? Thank you very much for any help you could offer.

River1731

[TAVS]

I dont know but that's not a relationship I would want to remain in. It's just going to bother you more as time goes on.

[Hugo Pickle]

Well man this one needs a real pro, You need to go to a real counselor for this one. Your talking serious issues and past traumatic events. Your also talking about people who are not in their first few dating scenarios. IE: little stuff like when do I call her?

I’ve been with women who have been traumatize before and each time it is different. One woman only wanted from behind with the lights on because she was raped from the front in the dark. I didn’t stay too long with her because things were too strange. I guess I just didn’t want to deal with all that then. But with other women they wanted the lights on too, I guess that’s my only bit of real advice is keep the lights on. Sometimes it helps at first to kind of look each other eye to eye in candle light, it will not help the action but will keep her hopefully thinking about the both of you and not some other time. Now that I think about it they also wanted to be on top a lot.

I feel for you man. I hope the both of you can work through this.

[clynn]

Seems to me that you aren't in a relationship that is very satisfying to you. You seem to have a lot of love to give and that doesn't seem possible with Christine.

It must be very hard as you clearly love her and would like this to work out. However, it seems as though you are hoping that this relationship will turn into something that it probably never will.....in which case you will always be disappointed.

Good luck.

[misombra]

how old is she? you?

[river1731]

Thank you all for your advice thusfar. I am super appreciative. For the record, she is 30......and I am 38. I just tucked her into bed and kissed her goodnight, and once again, she mentions Dianne in our conversation, and the fact that Dianne is going to a sporting event on Wednesday night. Then, as we're hugging, she places her mouth on my neck and gives me a "zerper", or something like that. It's the act of placing one's mouth on a person's neck and exhaling to make a you-know-what-kind of sound. Now, after you've had a good laugh imagining this scene (I know that I would if I read someone's else's account of being "zerped" on this forum), stop and consider how appropriate it really is given the state of our relationship. It's essentially sexless, affection deprived, initimate communication deprived, and on one of the few occasions that she takes the step to contact her lips to my skin she does this type of prank. If we were both very affectionate and tactile, I probably would see it as a little playful.....maybe. But on this occasion, it seemed almost disrespectful and inappropriate. Does anyone else see it this way? What is your take on the relationship she has with her friend, Dianne? Is is possible for two best-friend women to be too close, to the extent that their relationship interferes with any primary relationships they may have with a boyfriend? Honestly, I can't help but feel I am just getting the "leftover" emotional energies and effort from Christine, as she seems to give more to Dianne. Do you think it wouldn't be to much to ask Christine to not have any contact with Dianne for at least 4 days? I just can't see how their friendship is a healthy one, with all of the constant contact and visitations, and it seems as if Dianne is projecting her desire for an intimate relationship onto Christine, and Christine is allowing herself to be drawn in because of her own issues. It seems extremely co-dependent.

Thank you for any extra insights you could provide.

river1731

[clynn]

I think it is hard to call her relationship inappropriate.

That being said, I do understand that you feel you aren't getting your needs met. And that you feel you aren't the primary person in her life, and you would like to be. That is a problem.

Does Christine understand how difficult it is for you to not have much emotional and physical intimacy? Have you talked much about it?

I think that if a personal has been traumatized, as she has, ....or has a problem, one way or the other, that she might Want to seek a way to make it better. I don't think that her having a problem is as much a problem as her not wanting to seek help or otherwise grow to a new level.....

[river1731]

Thank you, Clynn. Your comments are really appreciated. I guess that hearing second hand through a few postings on this forum would provide a limited perspective on the type of relationship Christine has with Dianne. But it would be worth mentioning that it's not uncommon for Dianne to phone Christine incessantly, almost as if it's Dianne who is "addicted" to Christine in some kind of way. For instance, if Dianne phones our landline and Christine does not pick up, a split second later, Dianne will also phone Christine's cell phone. And then, about three hours later, the exact same thing happens. And then, three hours after that, sometimes it happens again. Not a day goes by during which Dianne and Christine don't talk or see each other, and that to me screams a co-dependency of some kind or another. Afterall, other women I know regularly go four, five, or sometimes a whole week without contact with their female friends, and the friendships are very healthy. I just cannot see how Dianne could have a healthy relationship with Christine. Furthermore, I've also received an icy glare from Dianne that lasts for only a brief moment, whenever I've been around the two of them. And on Saturday night, while at an xmas party for Christine's workplace (where Dianne happens to work, too....it's a hospital), Christine gets up off of a couch, walks to the other end of the room, grabs a carrot and sits down on another couch to eat it. This action left Dianne and I on the first couch.....but only for few seconds, as when Christine sat down, Dianne then performs the exact same action.....she gets up, walks over and grabs a carrot, and then sits down beside Christine on the other couch, leaving me sitting by myself and feeling kind of embarrassed. It was really freaky, and it was like I was somehow an intruder on Dianne's time with Christine. I'm not really saying there is anything wrong with their friendship, but only to the extent that it is co-dependent and that it diverts energies away from my relationship with Christine. It's so hard to articulate what is going on here, but my gut is definitely picking up on something pretty whacko.

Just a few more thoughts I wanted to share. Thank you again for your much appreciated viewpoints.

[clynn]

Hmmmmmmm.

I think I do understand it.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it is a problem.

What is a problem is how you feel about it. And that isn't to say your feelings are wrong.

I know that, in my life, I've had strong frienships with other women that probably wouldn't have allowed me to have a strong relationship with a man at the same time - at least not of the 'grown up' variety!

So, it isn't a problem. It just happens to be the phase that Christine (and Dianne) are in right now.

It is just unfortunate because you are realizing that this may mean that Christine isn't ready for a committed love relationship with you. And....will she ever be?

Has her relationship with Dianne been this strong for as long as you've been a couple?

Because....I also find that these intense female friendships can go in and out of vogue in a woman's life - as they find their own interests, etc.

[Hugo Pickle]

Actually the last bit of info you provided was more insightful than all the rest. You should have mentioned that stuff before, to me it is more important. I think you don’t have a chance. I think your girl has gone down the road of (as you said it) co-dependency. Once things like that happen you are done. But I could be wrong. Here is what I think, take it for what it is worth, I have never been in a thing like that, but I also used to work at a hospital and have met many freaky weird girls that do strange things together. Strangely enough I think hospital chicks are kind of weird.

Sometimes it seems to me like some women who have been hurt or whatever (only the freaky ones) like to do everything with someone who understands the very personal way that they feel. They do everything together. All the freaky chick teams that I have met I met in a club or at the hospital. They become extremely picky of who they talk to and who they hang out with. If you try to talk to one of them the other one gets pissed. But at the same time if you act like you don’t care they will both molest you and sleep with you if the environment is right. Its like they do everything together and nothing apart. They come and go whenever they want, everything you do is treated like an outsider. And heaven forbid that you demand anything.

I was only personally around some women like that for a short time. But I swear I see them in clubs and stuff a lot. They usually dress the same two like they are pulling from the same closet or one day one will wear what the other one wears and they don’t even live together. Or the make up is exactly the same and the hair is exactly the same. They drive together and hold hands a lot and practically act like lesbians, but they have boyfriends or go do one night stands all the time as well. They do the whole one is dominant thing too.

I think your doomed because what they want is to not be emotionally involved with anyone but screw everyone together at the same time. Its like women like to turn off all emotion and go insane sexually for a while until they just don’t put any emoticon into sex. Even a guy has a tough time of really doing this the way these freaky women seem to be able to. But now that I’m older and working out like a fiend. I am really interest to meet women like this again. Who knows, I really was only around a few people like that personally, but it seems that I recognize them everywhere.

Do you know what I mean now that you can see traits that they do that they think are subtle but really aren’t.

[misombra]

have you actually spoken to her about all of this?

[funsounds]

i think she and dianne both need invidual help.

just curious...but what attracts you to christine? she's affectionless...asexual...and lacks communication skills. so there's no physical or emotional intimacy. personally, i cant even begin to imagine being attracted to such a person...

[river1731]

Thanks Clynn. What is it about these strong female friendships that hinders the development of a relationship with a man at the same time? Is it because there is only so much emotional energy in the tank to go around, and that not much of this fuel is left over in the woman who has expended alot of it with another female friend?
What's really strange about Christine is that despite her low affection, asexual tendencies, and poor communication, she still regularly expresses an interest in marriage and having kids. I almost get the sense that my role in her life is to prevent her from being alone, and to provide her with children, and apart from that, that's it. She really doesn't take a whole heck of alot of interest in me in other areas, like my work, or how I am feeling at any particular time. Whenever I get a haircut, she never acknowledges my having had a haircut, and I almost get the impression that she doesn't even notice, such is the extent of some weird self-absorption she has going on. Yet, she is a very thoughtful friend and person in general. She assembles very nice scrapbooks for her female friends, and knows exactly what types of gifts to give me.
One other strange trait with her is that she rarely smiles or laughs in my presence, and is in general, more of the cynical type of person. I'ver heard her laugh on the phone with her friend, Dianne, but she never laughs this type of hearty laugh with me. Now, is this normal for girlfriends to have their own little humour style, and for the girls to become a little more inhibited around their man?

Thanks again for your highly valued feedback.

Hmmmmmmm.

I think I do understand it.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it is a problem.

What is a problem is how you feel about it. And that isn't to say your feelings are wrong.

I know that, in my life, I've had strong frienships with other women that probably wouldn't have allowed me to have a strong relationship with a man at the same time - at least not of the 'grown up' variety!

So, it isn't a problem. It just happens to be the phase that Christine (and Dianne) are in right now.

It is just unfortunate because you are realizing that this may mean that Christine isn't ready for a committed love relationship with you. And....will she ever be?

Has her relationship with Dianne been this strong for as long as you've been a couple?

Because....I also find that these intense female friendships can go in and out of vogue in a woman's life - as they find their own interests, etc.

[Rosebud]

I personally have had the same closeness as you describe with some friends of mine in the past. As of now, I do not and I'm in a serious relationship. I put more effort into my relationship than I do making sure I call my girl friends every day! I'm saying it is normal for her to be this close with her friend, but it seems as though she is in a comfort relationship with you. Whatever she doesn't get from her friend, she gets from you with the exception of a few things.

On that note, have you expressed all these feelings to her? Not about her spending so much time with Dianne but how her attention is directed away from you? Iw ouldn't give her an ultimatum on the friend situation because that's a fire waiting to explode! But i would definetly express your concern for her lack of attention unto you, and how you feel your not her SO. If you come off attacking Diane int eh situation she will resent you and that will push her away, you have to address it as though it's what's going on between you and her only!

[river1731]

Hey Hugo,

Thank you for your ear and interpretations of my situation. As you can see, I need all the help I can get with this one. I hear what you are saying about the periodic sexual recklessness of "hospital chicks". Even though my current gf is practically asexual, I strongly suspect that she has managed to pull off her own set of sexual adventures with fellow travelers in South America and Europe. It almost seems that asexual or sexual, females who are surrounded by the negativety of a hospital setting seek release and escape in foreign travel, and sex with new friends along the way. And "they" appear to be more open to traveling to higher risk areas in the world, too. Whatever the case may be, my gf, Christine, and her friend, Dianne, are the furtherst away from being promiscuous. Dianne is actually fairly religious, prim and proper, while Christine simply lacks a strong desire for sex to begin with. Plus, Christine is a very devoted and loyal partner, who would never in a million years entertain the idea of cheating.
My take on the situation is that they are using each other for their emotional and intimacy needs, and are incapable of exercizing this type of connection with a man, for whatever reasons.

I'm still not quite sure about your last sentence about the "subtle traits". Do you mean that the behaviour that they think is subtle----ie: dressing the same, or becoming pissed that you're only talking to one of them----can easily be seen by outsiders?

Thanks again for your feedback.

Actually the last bit of info you provided was more insightful than all the rest. You should have mentioned that stuff before, to me it is more important. I think you don’t have a chance. I think your girl has gone down the road of (as you said it) co-dependency. Once things like that happen you are done. But I could be wrong. Here is what I think, take it for what it is worth, I have never been in a thing like that, but I also used to work at a hospital and have met many freaky weird girls that do strange things together. Strangely enough I think hospital chicks are kind of weird.

Sometimes it seems to me like some women who have been hurt or whatever (only the freaky ones) like to do everything with someone who understands the very personal way that they feel. They do everything together. All the freaky chick teams that I have met I met in a club or at the hospital. They become extremely picky of who they talk to and who they hang out with. If you try to talk to one of them the other one gets pissed. But at the same time if you act like you don’t care they will both molest you and sleep with you if the environment is right. Its like they do everything together and nothing apart. They come and go whenever they want, everything you do is treated like an outsider. And heaven forbid that you demand anything.

I was only personally around some women like that for a short time. But I swear I see them in clubs and stuff a lot. They usually dress the same two like they are pulling from the same closet or one day one will wear what the other one wears and they don’t even live together. Or the make up is exactly the same and the hair is exactly the same. They drive together and hold hands a lot and practically act like lesbians, but they have boyfriends or go do one night stands all the time as well. They do the whole one is dominant thing too.

I think your doomed because what they want is to not be emotionally involved with anyone but screw everyone together at the same time. Its like women like to turn off all emotion and go insane sexually for a while until they just don’t put any emoticon into sex. Even a guy has a tough time of really doing this the way these freaky women seem to be able to. But now that I’m older and working out like a fiend. I am really interest to meet women like this again. Who knows, I really was only around a few people like that personally, but it seems that I recognize them everywhere.

Do you know what I mean now that you can see traits that they do that they think are subtle but really aren’t.