My general idea towards relationships (feel free to refute, agree, etc.)

[richardwordoff]

Hello everyone.

So I've come to the realization that I've never had a good reason to ask out any of the women that I've asked out. The only reasons I can really think of is that I was attracted to them and it seemed like they liked me (obviously I'm not including times when I was younger and a main reason to get a girlfriend was to obtain a status symbol). While those may be OK reasons, they aren't particularly good.

The handful of times that I've gone out with women I came to the realization that the date wasn't anything special. Every time we participated in some contrived event (went to a certain restaurant for example). Since the activity was something I would not normally do, I expected the presence of the other person to overcome what would normally be boredom. However, this did not happen and the novelty (can't think of another word) wore off pretty quickly and couldn't think of anything else to do.

To be honest, the sort of activities that I enjoy aren't particularly enhanced by the presence of a woman, and it would be unlikely anyway that she would the activity (heavy weight lifting, video games, reading, watching movies). For this reason I see little incentive to ask a woman out. After all, we would end up doing something normal and bland (eating) or an activity one of us does not particularly enjoy. In fact, if I did have a girlfriend I would probably feel just like this fellow in this link I happened to find today: (search google for "I hate doing the kind of things my girlfriend likes to do. Is this normal? - Yahoo! Answers") Is it really all that enjoyable to have a girlfriend if you have to constantly be doing things one of you dislikes (or to only do the few things that both of you like)?

Also, a certain part of any serious relationship are the romantic aspects. Romantic dinners, walks in the park, getting dragged to a chick flick, "cuddling", etc. all seem to be common. However, having seen other people engage in these activities I cannot possibly imagine seeing myself doing these things. In fact, it upsets me to see how some of my friends have changed once they got involved in a serious relationship. They end up doing all these romantic things, reduce their normal activities and generally appear to be wimpier men. To see one of my friends engaging in a public romantic exchange makes me embarrassed for them.
Since these romantic aspects are often part of a serious relationship I cannot see myself in such a relationship.

As far as the reasons people seek out relationships ("love", support, feeling of self worth) are concerned, I feel that "needing" these things signify weakness in an individual. The idea of me needing a relationship to reaffirm my self worth or to have support from someone else seems genuinely pathetic at worst and wuss-like at best. In fact, the only real reasons I can think of for seeking out a relationship would be: physical contact (sex, making out, etc.; an attractive partner is obviously a prerequisite for this), and having someone who shares similar interests to mitigate boredom. Basically, this sort of relationship seems to amount to "friends with benefits", which really isn't the most accepted in our society. Most women would not want to settle with a relationship like that (would push for a serious relationship) and quite frankly the idea of me actively seeking this sort of relationship would almost feel like womanizing behavior and make me feel like a genuinely sleazy person (although I certainly wouldn't turn such a relationship down if the other person was aware this was all I was looking for).

While I may come across as being bitter or someone who dislikes women, I assure you this is not the case. I would also like to say that I don't dislike people/look down on them for getting enjoyment out of their relationships. I simply can't get see myself getting enjoyment out of the romantic aspects of a relationship and cannot get enjoyment purely from just being around someone. Does anyone else feel this way? I know this is probably an unorthodox view and quite frankly there aren't really any people in real life that I would feel comfortable telling them this is how I feel about it.

[bulrush]

They end up doing all these romantic things, reduce their normal activities and generally appear to be wimpier men.

As far as the reasons people seek out relationships ("love", support, feeling of self worth) are concerned, I feel that "needing" these things signify weakness in an individual. The idea of me needing a relationship to reaffirm my self worth or to have support from someone else seems genuinely pathetic at worst and wuss-like at best.

It seems you have a problem with feeling your own emotions, or seeing other men having emotions. This is not good. I see therapy in your future.

By your post above it seems you only value physical domination in men, seeing emotions as "wimpy". As a fellow weight lifter and former body builder, I disagree.

[Layna]

You've obviously never been in love.

With my ex, I played MMORPGs, I went to museums, I read an utterly boring philosophy book with him, I watched all sorts of TV series. These are all things I would never do by myself and not something I would ever have thought I would enjoy. But I did, because he enjoyed it, because it meant spending time together, because it felt good that he wanted to share his hobbies and interests with me. It wasn't a matter at ALL of 'Oh not again one of these things he likes and I don't'... and it's not a matter of 'ok I'll play this game with you, but then you'll watch a romantic movie with me' either. That analytical approach you've got there doesn't work at all. No wonder you don't enjoy dates.

As for the 'needing emotional support etc', nobody should *need* that. Of course I like being desired and being told how damn awesome I am, but I certainly know I am awesome even if I don't have anybody to tell me so. Doesn't change the fact that it's nice to have someone like that.


Obviously without love or attraction this might seem like nonsense to you. But you date or have a relationship with someone because of your emotions, not because they too like banana-flavoured ice cream.

[richardwordoff]

bulrush: people generally don't like it when you insinuate they have a mental disorder.

Anyway..

I don't feel like I lack emotions. Crying, feeling remorse, etc. all are commonly seen as "unmanly" yet I am capable of those things and they have happened recently. I'm almost capable of feeling empathy. However, when I am discussing men in relationships as "wimps", I am not talking about such emotions. What I am talking about is when [some] men in relationships end up being spineless. Examples would be: near constant romantic mushiness (beyond normal or reasonable), never being able to say no when they don't want to do something, giving up activities and time with friends, etc.

As far as "only valuing physical domination in men" goes, I wouldn't say that is true. I'm certainly not a violent or aggressive person and I definitely value intelligence and good character (like I mentioned in my first post I would have major problems simply seeking out f*** buddies). However, you have to admit that if someone wants a relationship simply because they want affirmation of self worth then that is a sign of mental and emotional (not physical) weakness (for men OR women). I'm not saying it is pathetic to enjoy the feeling associated with being around another person.

Layna: I suppose you're right, I just don't understand it. Even with women that I would think about often and was attracted to, as soon as I got on the date I just thought "so this is it?" Like I said, the presence of the other person didn't keep the date from becoming uninteresting/boring rather quickly. As far as emotional support goes, I agree with you that nobody should need it. I also agree that it is nice to have that. What I am talking about is the motivation behind it. If someone is really OK with themselves, why would they be searching for a relationship to provide self affirmation (there is obviously nothing wrong with people having an emotional attachment and this being part of that though)? For me at least, self affirmation in a relationship context would probably feel about as exciting as my dates ended up being. Who knows, perhaps I am not capable of having that sort of emotional attachment.

[lahnnabell]

Seems as though you're having difficulty finding women that you are compatible with. You say you get bored on these typical, mundane dates. What's your idea of a great date?

[surfhb]

Wow...you sure sound like a barrel of Monkeys.

Some men become spineless wimps in relationships but that's because they were that before the relationship. Most men aren't into mushy romantics, as you put it.

What do you like to do? Find women who enjoy your passions

BTW....its obvious you've never been in love,so basically it all comes down to that . Find that one person you adore

[Layna]

I don't think self-affirmation is the drive behind a healthy relationship. It's a bonus and I guess it should be there to an extent, or at the very least there should never be a negative form of it (i.e. 'you're a bad person'), but I doubt that it is what people seek out.
That said, I do think relationships are to a certain extent inherently egoistical. Of course what I like to do in a relationship is to make the other person happy, and I spend more time on that than on making myself happy (in the context of the relationship). That means I spend more time doing things for them, doing activities they enjoy, than demanding they do the same for me. But this works because they do the same thing the other way round, and because love or attraction has a funny way of making you enjoy things you didn't use to be interested in, so it isn't a 'sacrifice'. But at the same time, it isn't entirely selfless.You might give more than you take, but you will never be happy if you only give and never take. But isn't that the same thing with ordinary friendships as well? I have friends not only because they enjoy the same things I do, but also because they value me. And a romantic relationship is very similar to that, I think.

As for the first half of your post, well, I don't think there's anything to argue about as far as over-the-top guys who can't say No are concerned. Too much is too much.

I hope what I'm saying makes sense. I rewrote it a few times but it's late here...

[MaidenMinx]

Not every relationship is based on mushiness and need. I have never subjected my husband to a chick flick at the cinema, though we have been sucked in to the occasional chick flick at home. Yes we go out for dinner but that is because we enjoy food not because we think we should be going out to dinner. Most times we end up criticising the restaurant. :p

What I am trying to say is that you're looking at this from a wonky perspective. Relationships aren't about going and finding someone you can tolerate and then subjecting yourself to needing them.

[sadie_genie]

No judgments from me. If friends with benefits are the type of thing for you, you should find someone similar. But of course, the number of women of that kind will decrease as people get older and settle down.

But from the perspective of someone who has dated a few guys and had relationships, I don't go into it thinking I need a relationship to affirm my self-worth as if being single is a shame. Single life is fun and much less worries. But there are reasons why I feel like I need to be exclusive once I started getting closer to a guy (emotionally and physically). For the more practical matter is to prevent him from going around ****ing other girls and spreading STDs to me. Then, there is the more emotional aspect which is that naturally a person will feel a sense of possessiveness towards his/her lover and I don't want to share him with other women.

So, with that being considered, if you are not particularly worried about getting STDs or fine with her being with other men while she is with you, then friends with benefits is right for you.

[richardwordoff]

Layna: I have plenty of friends/acquaintances that don't share many interests with me, and as such, I barely ever do anything with those people. I don't understand how a romantic relationship could be sustained like that.

lahnnabell: That's actually a good question because I can't think of an answer.

MaidenMinx: "What I am trying to say is that you're looking at this from a wonky perspective. Relationships aren't about going and finding someone you can tolerate and then subjecting yourself to needing them." I was just talking about the reasons some people seem to seek out relationships (online dating for example). I assume not all relationships happen in this manner though. There are certainly people that just become attracted to others and go from there (as opposed to actively seeking it). I suppose I'm looking at it like this: How are you going to meet a woman and start to develop an attachment unless you approach women you do not know, talk to them, and go out with them a few times? Sure, there may be cases where there is a woman you see often (part of your social circle, works with you, etc.) that you will develop an attachment with, but to me it seems like those sort of situations aren't particularly common (at least for me). So, what is driving you to approach these women you don't know? Loneliness? Societal pressure? Just for the hell of it? Self affirmation?

sadie_genie: Well, I personally am apprehensive of such a relationship for multiple reasons. 1) STDs. I'm not having sex with anyone unless I know they don't have them. Can you trust someone to tell you the truth? I also don't think anybody is going to be taking an STD test if they want to mess around. Even if they did, how do you know they didn't go out and get one sometime after that? 2) Like you've said, people can be or become jealous. What happens when any of the other guys she is dating/f***ing, etc. find out about that? You would hope she would make that clear with anyone else, but you're not going to know for sure. Some people are known to be f'in crazy. 3) How the hell do you even go about seeking out such a deal? Also, if you could get over feeling sleazy about it, how would you *not* end up with a reputation for being sleazy? I can imagine the response you'd get probably 95% of the time you brought this idea up to a girl... 4) Oh god, what if somehow your preventative measures failed and she ended up pregnant?! Or even worse, if she got pregnant on PURPOSE (lied about taking birth control for example). I've heard of stuff happening where crazy girls do this to guys to try and get child support or some shit. Likely pretty rare, but that is pretty damn scary.

[lahnnabell]

Well, you know a lot about what you don't like or want. How about exploring some possibilities based on the things you DO like?

[richardwordoff]

lahnnabell: I apologize for being obtuse, but I'm not quite sure what you meant by your last reply.

[sadie_genie]

sadie_genie: Well, I personally am apprehensive of such a relationship for multiple reasons. 1) STDs. I'm not having sex with anyone unless I know they don't have them. Can you trust someone to tell you the truth? I also don't think anybody is going to be taking an STD test if they want to mess around. Even if they did, how do you know they didn't go out and get one sometime after that? 2) Like you've said, people can be or become jealous. What happens when any of the other guys she is dating/f***ing, etc. find out about that? You would hope she would make that clear with anyone else, but you're not going to know for sure. Some people are known to be f'in crazy. 3) How the hell do you even go about seeking out such a deal? Also, if you could get over feeling sleazy about it, how would you *not* end up with a reputation for being sleazy? I can imagine the response you'd get probably 95% of the time you brought this idea up to a girl... 4) Oh god, what if somehow your preventative measures failed and she ended up pregnant?! Or even worse, if she got pregnant on PURPOSE (lied about taking birth control for example). I've heard of stuff happening where crazy girls do this to guys to try and get child support or some shit. Likely pretty rare, but that is pretty damn scary.

Well, that is why you get to know a person first (if they are generally honest people, doesn`t have a promiscuous lifestyle, etc). Of course, there is no guarantees but at least it is better than allowing them to **** other people. If they are not in a relationship with you then they are justified for doing it and without guilt. The protection of promise of exclusivity, STD tests paper proof, and condoms is better than just the latter two. Also, anyone willing to be friends with benefits has a very high chance of promiscuity.

The same logic goes for possessiveness. Also, if someone is cheating, you can usually tell. They have less time for you, seems to always hide things, don`t want to declare you as her boyfriend, etc.

[lahnnabell]

Go looking for women that are interested in the things you like. I went on a date with one guy that really had nothing more to talk about other than his work out routine and whatever it was he did in the Marines. There was definitely never a second date because I knew right off the bat that we had nothing in common. That was during a period of my life when I was bored and I allowed some guys I met online to pursue me. I very quickly realized that wasn't the avenue for me actively invest my time in.

I very much prefer offering my time to those I meet in person because I can get a better read on them. To do this it involved going out with my friends to concerts, bars, etc. And that required me to be a social butterfly and while that's relatively easy for me, it's not for many others. Do you have friends that you can go out with?

[eo_ih]

bulrush: people generally don't like it when you insinuate they have a mental disorder.

That happens a lot around here, lol. I've several times been recommended to seek counselling, to correct my obviously wrong ideas and emotions.

BTW....its obvious you've never been in love,so basically it all comes down to that . Find that one person you adore

Pretty meaningless, tbh.

I was just talking about the reasons some people seem to seek out relationships (online dating for example). I assume not all relationships happen in this manner though. There are certainly people that just become attracted to others and go from there (as opposed to actively seeking it). I suppose I'm looking at it like this: How are you going to meet a woman and start to develop an attachment unless you approach women you do not know, talk to them, and go out with them a few times? Sure, there may be cases where there is a woman you see often (part of your social circle, works with you, etc.) that you will develop an attachment with, but to me it seems like those sort of situations aren't particularly common (at least for me). So, what is driving you to approach these women you don't know? Loneliness? Societal pressure? Just for the hell of it? Self affirmation?

This is the crux of the matter, really. People will firmly deny any of those reasons applying to them but it is of course nearly always the case. You're quite right to note that 9 times of 10 a person does not know, or barely knows, a prospective romantic/sexual partner before they intentionally seek to get to know them. So, why would they bother? Essentially it is as you presumed, they are either lonely and need someone around (moreso as we get older, perhaps). Or maybe they want someone to call a boyfriend or girlfriend to subtly show off to their peers and feel that they are fitting in. Or, as in my case, they might feel like they really should be able to seduce people and so are essentially hunting for sport rather than because they're desperately hungry (lonely) or for a customary social event at the grounds of the manor house (fitting in with their peers).

So that's my reason for occasionally bothering. I have very, very low motivation in other ways, including a low sex drive and a very low tolerance for all the pathetic theatrical and rehearsed "romantic" nonsense that everyone seems to enjoy. I sometimes look at humans and think it could be fun to be so imperceptive and blinkered, just for a while, and so from time to time I try to get involved but it never works very well. I put on a learned act - or rather a conscious act (because everyone learned how to behave at some point) - to string a girl along for a bit but eventually I just have no energy and give up

OP, perhaps if you do enjoy physical contact and sex then you could still snag an exclusive **** buddy. It's true, she will need grooming with clothed activities first and at least occasionally after you start having sex, but you can make it as painless as possible.

For example, yea going to a restaurant with her isn't exactly awesome, but still you get a nice meal out of it, right? And her being there isn't that bad. If you can't find anything you actively enjoy doing with her then just do stuff you can enjoy somewhat, and bring her along.

Absolutely refuse to be a wet puddle of wuss and never do anything you disapprove of your friends doing. It might even make her respect you more, you'll find.

I have a girl available to me at the moment, she's basically up for anything but I do really struggle to stay in character. She's on very thin ice but probably doesn't know it - I'd ditch her in a second but from time to time I feel like hanging out. It gets old pretty fast, though. The main fun is seeing if you can defeat her and get into bed, then you briefly feel a sense of achievement but after that it's pointless.