Is my relationship doomed, or should I hang in there?

[azilin]

I'm trying to figure out if my relationship has actual legs, or if it's doomed.

I'm a 52 year old widower. 9 months ago I met the 50 year old woman I'm currently in a relationship with. We happened on each other in an online forum not related to love / romance. We were initially attracted to each other's writing style and ways of expressing ourselves. At the time we met, her husband had died 3 months prior, my wife, about 18 months prior.

Now, as then, I am basically done with my grieving, have no financial or personal issues, no health issues, and my kids are out of the nest. On the other hand she still at this distance has unresolved grief, two teens at home (great kids, though, and I get on with them very well indeed), serious estrangement drama with her father, and her late husband left her with terrible financial woes that came to light only after his death.

She's a very independent, ethical person, and wants no rescuing. She's never taken a dime from me or taken advantage of me in any other way, has always been up front and honest with me. However, our relationship is not one of financial or emotional equals at present. The only parity is that we're both physically healthy, as far as we know, and we intuitively "get" each other in all the important ways. We both feel that we can be completely ourselves with each other.

She's risen above a very difficult childhood, has made her way in the world, raised two delightful children. I respect her immensely for figuring out life pretty much on her own, and overcoming terrible odds to live more mindfully and intelligently than most people with all the advantages manage to do. Maybe better than I have, come to that.

Predictably, though, she's shut down emotionally. At times, she pulls away. It has made it impossible for me to sort out how much of her issues are situational, how many are chronic / preexisting / likely to persist. She does admit to having generalized anxiety disorder, although you'd never know it to meet her -- she's not the nail-biting, fretful type. She has chronic insomnia, mostly. But she doesn't take it out on me or anyone else.

Since I am a telecommuter, I mothballed my house and took an apartment near her for the past 6 months, to get to know her in a more normal fashion. I hang out with her maybe 3 days a week, except when she "goes dark" on me because she "needs space". At these times she'll randomly quit answering the phone or even emailing me, and the days we'd normally spend together come and go without apparent regret on her part. It's happened twice now, at times when she's particularly stressed. At these times rather than reaching out to me for support and a listening ear, she reverts to her childhood avoidance pattern of going it alone. Although a couple of times she has gone the other way, falling into my arms and opening up to me completely -- for a day or two, and then thinking better of it.

Now she wants me to go back home for some open ended number of months while she sorts out her feelings / issues / figures out what she wants. Says she wants to experience living alone, without a man for a time. She won't make me any promises. Which speaks to both her integrity, and her ambivalence. In theory, we'll be in touch most every day, by phone or email. She won't be seeing other men, if for no other reason than that she can't handle me as it is.

Intellectually I'm fine with all this. But at a heart level ... I'm going to suffer, because I'm going to miss her and her children terribly. When I'm actually with her, it's wonderful for me. I've come to love the life I've built for myself here with her, even with its limitations.

I don't have a scarcity mentality, but I seriously doubt I will meet the likes of her again. She is intelligent, honest, ethical, non-judgmental, mature, and very wise. It doesn't hurt that she's gorgeous. I am clear that I would be very happy living with her. I believe she loves me, but she finds it impossible to open up to me beyond a certain point -- a point that keeps moving around in a way that is frustrating and emotionally demanding for me. Probably for her too. I've consulted with a psychiatrist who tells me this is perfectly normal and to be expected, given her circumstances.

So I have a dilemma. Is there enough data here for me to conclude that it just can't possibly work out between us? Or do I risk another 6 to 12 months to see how it shakes out? I'm inclined to try to see her through this, but the emotional roller coaster is getting to me -- it's taking me down a bit. People like my love, who are struggling with anxiety combined with actual, real life stress, can be, in effect, self-absorbed, distracted, and flaky, while not meaning to. I'm not getting what I need from the relationship, and we both know it. My feeling is she's worth waiting for, at least for a time. But it's possible that feeling, powerful as it is, can't compensate for the fact that I am lonely and not feeling even the minimal level of commitment I want to see out of a relationship.

At present the plan is for me to drive back to my home 1700 miles away, in mid-January. For us to be in touch by email and phone, and probably to see each other every few weeks for a couple of days as long as I am willing to foot the travel expense, which I'm well able to do.

My basic problem with that is that I'll spend months missing her, feeling deprived, wondering which way things will go with us, and I would guesstimate that the odds of me coming back to continue pursuing our relationship in person -- much less the odds of us just being together and getting on with life together -- are probably not better than 40 percent. Because her ability to move forward is largely circumstantial, and the circumstances are largely not in her control.

On the plus side, I think she's moving along pretty normally grief-wise, and the thing with her Dad is probably stable for now. Her kids are well adjusted and likely won't inject any new problems into the situation. She's about 18 months away from the first one heading to college, so whatever adjustments that entails -- empty nest syndrome or whatever -- I suppose worrying about that at this distance is just borrowing trouble.

So what do y'all think? Do I give her, say, 6 months to get her shit together enough that we can move forward? Or do I just take the pragmatist's point of view and move on?

She's not holding me. She recognizes this isn't fair to me, and has said more than once that I'm free to play the field (though I can tell, secretly, she doesn't want me to). But that's not my style.

So between the fact she's a wonderful human being, and that I love her, and that I don't consider her a fungible commodity -- I tend to want to wait. But on this particular winter night, the odds seem so very, very long, and I feel that I'm getting too old for this sh_t.

Anyway ... thanks for listening, and I appreciate any thoughts or advice or clarifying ideas you might have for me.

[IndiReloaded]

Sorry for your loss. I think you need to ask yourself where you were about a year after your wife died. Add to that complicated mix the fact you probably didn't have the added guilt/confusion about meeting someone who you really like so soon after she died.

Those are the issues she is struggling with. What are yours? You are at a stage of life where things are good and there is no immediate urgency to things, right? So, if she needs space, give it to her. I would take her reluctance to immediately dive into a relationship with you as a sign of her loyalty and commitment to her values. Respect them. Perhaps suggest some grief counselling if you think she is struggling.

[Chupacabras]

Ouch.

I'll try not to Dr. Phil you with a short simplistic answer. If I'm reading the math right, it's been a year since she was widowed? She's got a whole lot of adjusting and grieving she's been avoiding by slipping you into that void in her life. Your presence is not allowing her to completely heal, which you seem to understand.

My advice is yes, give her the six months to mend while maintaining "exclusivity" ie. not dating anyone else. in the grand scheme of things, it's not that long to wait if you really want her family in your life.

[azilin]

Sorry for your loss. I think you need to ask yourself where you were about a year after your wife died. Add to that complicated mix the fact you probably didn't have the added guilt/confusion about meeting someone who you really like so soon after she died.

Those are the issues she is struggling with. What are yours? You are at a stage of life where things are good and there is no immediate urgency to things, right? So, if she needs space, give it to her. I would take her reluctance to immediately dive into a relationship with you as a sign of her loyalty and commitment to her values. Respect them. Perhaps suggest some grief counselling if you think she is struggling.

Through most of this I've been aware that where she's at in the grieving process is pretty similar to where I was at the same point. She's moving through that piece just fine. Both of us lost our spouses in a similar fashion, a long difficult illness with lots of what's known as "anticipatory grief". This has an impact on how long the process takes. That said, yes -- undeniably it was pretty quick turnaround for her. I don't think she has guilt issues, but confusion? Probably so.

It's true that there's no particular urgency for me, other than the pressure one feels at my age to make the most of whatever good years you have left, and a sense of restlessness / loneliness that is, I suppose, the common lot of man.

Thanks for your input, it's consistent with what I got from the professional. It helps.

[Mish]

Now she wants me to go back home for some open ended number of months while she sorts out her feelings / issues / figures out what she wants. Says she wants to experience living alone, without a man for a time. She won't make me any promises. Which speaks to both her integrity, and her ambivalence. In theory, we'll be in touch most every day, by phone or email. She won't be seeing other men, if for no other reason than that she can't handle me as it is.

I think her decision is perfectly understandable given the circumstances. After all, she only had 3 months to grief for her loss before she met you. She didn't really have time to readjust to a life as a widow when she started seeing you. You had 18 months to move on, I think she will at least need an equivalent to be on the same level as you.

The reason why she doesn't make any promises is most likely because she doesn't know which way she's going to go yet. If you are someone who can't tolerate uncertainty then maybe the two of you aren't a good match and you should look else where. If however you do believe you two are as compatible as you say, then maybe you will need to take the risk, bite the bullet, put your feelings on hold and see how this develops in the next 18 months (or so).

[azilin]

My advice is yes, give her the six months to mend while maintaining "exclusivity" ie. not dating anyone else. in the grand scheme of things, it's not that long to wait if you really want her family in your life.

Ah yes. The proverbial but nonexistent Grand Scheme. Well ... I see an advice pattern forming here ... and I will probably go with it. The main problem is lack of explicit commitment, even in principle, to us being together as an endpoint. I have trouble reconciling that with the level of intimacy we've engaged in. There's an <i>implicit</i> commitment from her ... I think, assuming I'm not just seeing what I want to see. With women, how do you ever know? But I wish she'd say, "I want to be with you, but just can't do it justice for awhile." But it's more like, "Despite all that has passed between us, I have no clue and can't really say. You've been an angel to me, I adore your attentiveness ... but I just don't know my own heart right now."

Part of it is relationship style. This is only my third serious relationship (intimate, sexual, shared secrets, trust, etc) in my entire life. And the first two were 15-year marriages. She's had the same number of marriages (about 7 years each), but more men than she can count before that. Serially monogamous, but tends to view men as interchangeable, since they've always pursued her en masse, and her pattern was, a new man every few years basically. I'm not used to that, and I suppose it makes me insecure. Which is my problemo, not hers. But you know, she's precious to me ... I don't feel like I'm that to her. I'm just the Next Guy. In the back of her mind, if it doesn't work out between us, she'll just snap her fingers for the next one after me. That is the fear anyway. I just want to know she's committed, at least a little more than this.

I suppose the other piece is she has historically gone with chest-thumping he-men, and I'm just Mr. Nice Guy. Sometimes I wonder if I'm too passive for her. But I can't explore that; she couldn't tell me in any case in the frame of mind she's in.

At the end of the day, though, I suppose she's towing the correct line. It is what it is. So I'll stew in my own juices for awhile and see if I get marinaded or rewarded, I guess. My Master Rationalization is that at the end of the day I've done the Right Thing by her ... if I end up being the dear sweet man who nevertheless doesn't make the cut, at least it wasn't for lack of trying.

[IndiReloaded]

Azilin, even at 50 (not that old, lol, I'm not far behind you) you sound like a catch. You have all the traits of a mans-man, its clear from your writing style. Don't be insecure. She will come around, give it a few months and keep the communication *open*. Even if she doesn't, there are plenty of other potential companions for a classy guy like you. Worry not.

[kms]

Wow... I'm so sorry for your loss. 52 is so young to lose a spouse... I can't imagine what that situation must feel like.

I'm going to have to chime in and say that she absolutely needs more time to grieve and to be on her own; to reclaim her life, and to adjust to life without her husband. That may very well take a lot of time. In fact, for divorced women, it typically takes up to 2 years to heal (regardless of who left whom), so I would imagine that the process of healing from the death of a spouse would be similar. Plus, although the stages of grief are well known, not everyone goes through them at the same rate, or even in the same order. She may linger in one phase longer than you did, or she may experience them in a different order.

She does need time. She'll respect you and appreciate you highly if you give it to her. I'm sure she knows that it'll be hard for you, but she ultimately needs to do what's best for herself and her own sanity. It would be very good for her to go to therapy too, to help her process her grief and begin to work through the issues causing her anxiety, insomnia, and from the sound of it, depression. Honestly my thoughts would be guilt, confusion as to the cause, but has she suffered from this prior to the death of her husband? If so, then there are deeper issues that may take more time to resolve, which may also complicate her healing process.

So, my advice is to show her that you care and love her by giving her the space she needs. It's difficult, of course, but perhaps that could be time you could spend investing in hobbies, traveling, making new friends, doing some self-improvement, etc.

Oh and by the way, she may very well be tired of the 'manly' type and just want to be with someone who is caring, loving, responsible, and who connects with her on a deeper level. I'd take that any day.

[azilin]

Azilin, even at 50 (not that old, lol, I'm not far behind you) you sound like a catch. You have all the traits of a mans-man, its clear from your writing style. Don't be insecure. She will come around, give it a few months and keep the communication *open*. Even if she doesn't, there are plenty of other potential companions for a classy guy like you. Worry not.

Thanks, you're very kind. I think I bring a lot of strengths to the table, but I'm not a strapping athlete and I'm not the sort to storm someone's gates. Some women have had their tastes set to that primal sort of stuff. You are right, though, in the sense that it will be what it will be. Also right that she's ready for something completely different -- but regardless of how ready she is, if she doesn't feel the spark of chemistry, the best you can hope for is that she will "settle" for something that doesn't really float her boat. Not a good thing. She deserves something more than the absence of a negative.

Plenty of others? Sure, in theory. In practice, it's only the occasional woman I encounter that gets more than a "meh" reaction out of me, and I don't encounter that many. Combination of being an introvert and a geek. I prefer serendipitous introductions ... to me there is something inherently needy and "off" about dating sites, not that I haven't given them a try. I like the concept, and I'm a software developer by trade, so have to cultural resistance to using them -- but the quality of people I've seen even on the paid sites, leads me to lose all faith in humanity.

That, too, will be what it will be.

[azilin]

Wow... I'm so sorry for your loss. 52 is so young to lose a spouse... I can't imagine what that situation must feel like.

I was 50 at the time, actually, but thanks. It's okay. She's not suffering anymore.

So, my advice is to show her that you care and love her by giving her the space she needs. It's difficult, of course, but perhaps that could be time you could spend investing in hobbies, traveling, making new friends, doing some self-improvement, etc.

Been there, done that. I can do it some more. What the heck. My heart isn't really in it though. I thought having time to think, study, explore would be more compelling. It gets old quicker than I'd have thought.

Oh and by the way, she may very well be tired of the 'manly' type and just want to be with someone who is caring, loving, responsible, and who connects with her on a deeper level. I'd take that any day.

Women say that ... but they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want at least to occasionally have you be a cave man who will bonk them over the head and have their way with them. I don't do "cave man" very well. Nevertheless ... I can't be other than who I am. It'll work out, or not ...

Thanks for the input, it really helps. Actually I'm surprised and gratified at the high quality of feedback here. You guys are the best.

[Gigabitch]

Azilin, even at 50 (not that old, lol, I'm not far behind you) you sound like a catch.

Agreed. You're a hot commodity. Know this.

The stage-of-grief thing is just one problem, here. She's got a whole busload of baggage, emotional and otherwise to deal with as well. This, to me, is the big red flag. Even if she weren't over a year behind you in the process of dealing with the death of her spouse, you'd still be working hard to convince her because of all of the things you've mentioned.

A guy like you shouldn't have to sell himself so hard.

[azilin]

The stage-of-grief thing is just one problem, here. She's got a whole busload of baggage, emotional and otherwise to deal with as well. This, to me, is the big red flag. Even if she weren't over a year behind you in the process of dealing with the death of her spouse, you'd still be working hard to convince her because of all of the things you've mentioned.

A guy like you shouldn't have to sell himself so hard.

Thanks for the counterpoint.

I don't feel like I'm working hard to sell myself. I feel I've sold myself with little actual effort. Her resistance is generic, situational, and has little to do with me personally; most of my fears are just that -- concerns of what may develop over time, and that I would prefer to know as much about, as soon as I can, by continuing to actively and in person explore the relationship.

As to baggage -- it's only baggage if she can't separate her junk from my junk. She's exceptional at not projecting or judging. I think it comes from how she has successfully overcome her helpless, shaming childhood -- she's had to be good at that.

There are indeed potential red flags, but deciding whether they're both real and chronic has to wait until the situation clarifies and I can observe her in more normal circumstances. It's not that I'm trying to move in with her at this point. I would simply prefer to stay in the 'hood and continue to be part of her journey and not to add back into this relationship a long distance component that I see as needless, given that I have both the flexibility and the means to make it go away.

However, by all accounts, even though I don't intuitively understand the emotional shutdown, and doubt I would react this way in her shoes, everyone who seems to actually know anything about such matters deems it to be completely understandable / normal / predicable / part of the process of dealing with grief plus chronic external stress.

So, I'm going to go with the flow, and try not to over think it, stress on it, or fret about it. Also -- I have to figure out where my separation anxiety is coming from, and get a grip on it. If our relationship has legs, it'll survive a few months of distance; if it doesn't, it won't and shouldn't. It's that simple. And that hard.

[Gigabitch]

Well, I hope she's worth it, and I hope you don't twist yourself into some sort of pretzel shape trying to find out.

[IndiReloaded]

Plenty of others? Sure, in theory. In practice, it's only the occasional woman I encounter that gets more than a "meh" reaction out of me, and I don't encounter that many. Combination of being an introvert and a geek.

For someone discerning, which you sound like you are, that's as true in your 20s as your 50s. I'm repeating myself but you really do sound like a sane, reasonable, together person. Companionship will not be a problem with even a bit of putting yourself out there. I'm not sure you should leave things entirely to serendipity. Luck favours the prepared, and all that.

I've been impressed by the offerings of this site, if you happen to live near an urban centre. Its more an 'interesting things to do' site for meeting like-minded people:

[url]http://www.meetup.com/[/url]

[azilin]

For someone discerning, which you sound like you are, that's as true in your 20s as your 50s.

I'm much more discerning now than I was in my 20's, I can assure you. I still don't know what, if anything I was thinking back then.

Aside from that, I think that sometime in people's 40's, they often tend to become relationally burned out / gun shy, tend to develop more physical problems / issues, have over the years become barnacled with more extended family cruft, etc. The number of people who are relatively undamaged / unencumbered with complicated circumstances goes way down. Meanwhile, those survivors are much more selective. The difference in the vibe between now and the last time I was single (in my late 30s) is palpable. Back then I couldn't beat 'em off with a stick; now I put myself on a theoretically nicely pre-filtered site like eHarmony and end up with scores of losers to sift through, and only one serious inquiry coming at me -- from yet another loser. And I don't think it was my profile that was the problem. A couple of dates with one person who turned out to have Packrat Syndrome big-time doesn't seem like reasonable return on investment.

By contrast, I really sat up and took notice of this woman immediately. There was no shortage of inspiration. At this point, I need someone to rock my world to motivate me to even bother.

At any rate, I'm not trying to be a downer, just realistic. I don't see myself in a position to be particularly fussy beyond my non-negotiables, which is, someone who I understand, who understands me, has good character and ethics, and with whom I can be myself (and vice versa); someone who is intelligent, open minded without letting their brain leak, and free of significant physical or mental problems, reasonably self-possessed and responsible and thoughtful and philosophically compatible with me.

Selfishly I could also wish for no complicating factors -- no old business to close out, no kids in the nest to complicate things, and no financial concerns. But that seems like it's crossing over into unrealistic territory. By the time anyone's in their 50's, a heck of a lot of life has happened to them. And what's left of me isn't exactly unscathed either.

So in my case, I could cut my losses and run -- as the moderator suggested, not work so hard -- as if life owed me an easy time of it, when in fact, it owes me nothing and certainly is indifferent. I might put the next 6 months into finding someone else -- which may or may not happen -- and I may or may not find them any less encumbered. Worse, I may regret that I wasn't a little more patient. It'd be just like life to suddenly hand her some good breaks -- after I'd given up on it all -- so I get to always wonder what might have been.

Lastly -- I am nothing if not loyal. She may not have clarity about or commitment to me, but I have it towards her. I can't really not see her through this time, if I really care about her like I claim to. I can't walk away because there's not as much romance, sex, fun and certainty in it as I might wish for. I can't ethically be issuing decision-forcing ultimatums at her right now. That time may come, but isn't here yet. She's not a 25 year old with stars in her eyes agonizing over whether I'm the over-idealized best choice; this isn't "paralysis of the analysis". She just honestly doesn't know her own heart right now, and her financial viability is seriously threatened by things beyond her control -- she's shutting down in order to survive.

So ... I'll probably see it through, since my crystal ball seems to not be working these days. I may get burned, it's true. She may wake from this nightmare, months from now, with clarity about me -- but clarity that I'm not right for her. So be it, I guess. Who ever said life is fair. At least the only thing I'll be out is my time and caring -- my own free choice and nothing she's demanded for herself. And I can't say that time and caring would have been wasted or unappreciated, simply because I didn't get the brass ring I hoped for.

--Bob