Creating Utopia

[nomas]

If (when, really) I am king of the world, I have every intention of going down in history as one of the best, most noble leaders ever.

Since it's still a long while before it actually happens, this is a good place to start planning out the theory, working out the bugs, getting a wide variety of inputs.

I'd like to get a brain storming session as to what would be the most optimal society we can create if (when) we actually had the power.

I'll begin with my own observations.

Capitalism vs Socialism.
Neither and both. All systems are designed with the best intents in mind, which is how one makes a case for them. On paper each is almost undeniable. The biggest problem, really, is that us Humans do not behave as expected..we have bad qualities such as being corruptible, lazy, selfish, arrogant, hostile, etc. (now I'm an optimist, and I also want to highlight that I think that our good qualities outweigh our bad..in general, but our bad qualities are what makes it difficult to lay out a system of governance and expect us to follow it to a tee and expect that we will do what is most honorable for the greater good).

The problem with Socialism is that when the competition that capitalism promotes is not present, we become complacent (lazy) and progress is not pushed. Why work harder if we're getting the same compensation no matter what?

Okay, so Capitalism is the way to go? Kind of. The problem with the cut-throat, dog-eat-dog Capitalistic model is that we are ruthless (selfish). The more we have, the more we want..we can't get enough. As soon as the balance is tilted in your favor, it's no longer a fair fight. It promotes the "bully" system: I'm the biggest strongest boy in the playground, so you join my posse or I beat you up..thus you create your tyrannical empire and the little people get the shaft, living on their knees. You have a network and just a few of your buddies will always stay on top because the balance of power allows you to do whatever you want...giving limited opportunity to others outside of the network who, under fairer circumstances, may have fared way better, possibly cured a disease, given the chance.

My proposal: a happy median.

Ensure basic necessities for all people. Now here there may be issues as to how someone defines "basic necessities". I am adamant on my view that necessities are very few: SHELTER (provide for a place where you have a roof over your head, clothes on your back, climate control, never be cold or hot..and that's actually almost a luxury, but I believe it can easily be provided), NOURISHMENT (again, I'm willing to go farther than just water, rice, and beans..i'm willing to say there has to be a nice rotation of some kind of variety..a la school cafeteria veriety), MEDICAL ATTENTION(everyone has access to doctors and necessary medicine), ENTERTAINMENT (again, not a necessity, per se, but I think all of this can be provided for everyone..for the grater good, you prefer people to be busy with hobbies and entertainment than to have nothing to do and be out robbing, etc...idle hands are the devil's workshop) so, everyone has access to a playground, swimming pool, gym, library, maybe a movie a couple of times a week.

That's the socialistic contribution.

Now capitalism:

It is a fair principle: the harder you work, the more you get compensated and vise versa. In order for one not to gain too much power( becoming corrupted in the process) we have to be careful about placing caps on power. I'm thinking a simple limitation in ensuring that the wealth accrued by one in ones lifetime remains with the person who earned it. In short..no hand-me-downs on power and wealth. That's right, no setting up your children for life. I know this may be unpopular to some, but consider the alternative..basically what happens today, networks. I consider myself of above average intelligence and work ethic. I'm the guy who is never absent, never late, never call in sick, always do what I'm supposed to, responsible, ethical, etc. I know there are many posters here who are in the same situation, intelligence can be pretty easily observed through writing often times (not 100% effective, I know)..anyway, point being, more often than not, an ultra rich businessman's or politician's son will not necessarily posses these qualities, he may have been too pampered, had everything resolved for them, never learned to fight and struggle to obtain something or resolve a problem (again, I'm generalizing for the sake of the example); it is THEY who will assume positions, by default while some of us, possibly worthier candidates will find it difficult, many times over, to be given shots at being in such leadership positions.

So, capitalism, yet, while keeping networking in check; including setting up your descendants. The argument: the best you can leave your children with is the tools necessary to be the best they could be, not with a lot of possessions.

Once each person passes away, his/her accrued wealth goes to commonwealth, into the socialistic side of governance..increasing the quality of everyone's "basic necessity" allowance common denominator.

The problem I can foresee is that, though I have been as unbiased as I could, i may have inevitably been influenced by my unmaterialistic nature, i.e., mine is probably too much a hippie-ish, tree-huggin, liberalistic friendly proposal.

Okay, so let's start there..comments on this overview of a system? What's good, what's bad..where do we tweak it?

[KingZ]

I've a feeling you haven't read Marx's writing.

You should read Communist Manifesto. It's brilliant.

Unfortunately, capitalism is inherently flawed.

[nomas]

I haven't gotten past the first chapter..it's such slow reading :S, but perhaps you can enlighten us on the pros and cons of each system explicitly. How is the Socialist Manifesto brilliant? How is Capitalism flawed? Please expand.

[Junket]

Canada seems to be doing alright, lets do that.

[doppelgaenger]

In addition to the Communist Manifesto, I recommend reading the book Utopia by Thomas More. "Utopia" actually means "no place"!

[Sonrisa]

basically, you'd distribute the wealth of people who worked hard to provide for THEIR kids, to the kids of some lazy mofo's who've been sitting on their asses and leaching off of your non-materialistic system that provided them with basic necessities?

[Sonrisa]

oh, and for those who suggest that we read books, since that most likely won't happen - can't you just outline what the book is aobut?

[KingZ]

basically, you'd distribute the wealth of people who worked hard to provide for THEIR kids, to the kids of some lazy mofo's who've been sitting on their asses and leaching off of your non-materialistic system that provided them with basic necessities?

Classic you. If doppel had spewed this idiocy, it would have gone directly into my signature.

[doppelgaenger]

Classic you. If doppel had spewed this idiocy, it would have gone directly into my signature.

Wee!



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[nomas]

basically, you'd distribute the wealth of people who worked hard to provide for THEIR kids, to the kids of some lazy mofo's who've been sitting on their asses and leaching off of your non-materialistic system that provided them with basic necessities?

Something like that, except without the demonizing one sector of society and martyrizing (if you will) the other.

Come on, Smiley, truly, I'd like to see some interesting exchange of ideas, out of the box thinking: scratch it all and start over kind of thing and maybe have economy savvy people punch wholes in the theories. Your argument is just exaggerations just as much as I can say that YOU propose to distribute wealth to trust fund kids, likely MUCH lazier than the "mofo's" you singled out simply because they were born into it?

Yes, I propose basic necessities provided for all, even "lazy mofo's". The lazier you are, the less you get. It is easy to support the basic necessities. My theory is that most people won't go that route..I say people will continue to want to improve their status and will work hard for it. I say there will be more motivation to do so because the playing field will be more level. Right now we all know how difficult it is to get your foot in the door into a high political position or even high business position, hell, even in the liberal arts, because those positions are reserved for the healthy minority and their buddies with the occasional Star that claws and scratches their way up there.

Understand where I'm going with this? Yes, I see your point. You say don't make it easy for lazy people to continue to be lazy. I say, it's not hard to give everyone enough to stay alive and not be tempted to be a nuisance to society and not be given any reason to complain. Right now we can all bitch and complain that no matter how hard I try I'll likely not be as rich as a Walton even if I could very well be much worthier in character an intelligence because it's TRUE. This is undeniable fact.

Why isn't it better for people like you or I to have a fighting chance? If we are above average in certain valuable qualities and we put our asses to work, why is it not a good thing that we fare better than a lazy son of a wealthy family?

[Junket]

The rich aren't getting any poorer that's for sure.

[nomas]

oh, and for those who suggest that we read books, since that most likely won't happen - can't you just outline what the book is aobut?

Exactly.

Frisbee, Canada is kickass indeed, but I understand their economy is also getting into debt..but now we're talking global economics of which I know little about..maybe we have an economist in our ranks?

[Sonrisa]

i say make everyone work. no benefits for those who are doing nothing. there are far too many people unemployed by choice because the system feeds them and puts roof over their heads. too many women having kids just to get a larger chunk of money that people like us are paying in taxes. i say take away kids if parents are unemployed or force an abortion.

[Lipp]

there are far too many people unemployed by choice because the system feeds them and puts roof over their heads. too many women having kids just to get a larger chunk of money that people like us are paying in taxes.

But is it the system's fault for making it possible or the people's fault for having the attitude to abuse it?

[Sonrisa]

But is it the system's fault for making it possible or the people's fault for having the attitude to abuse it?

of course it's the people's fault. system was created to help and people are taking advantage of it.