Is this common in US?

[sparkle_jello]

What's the comparison in numbers though? There are 40 million uninsured in US, that's 1 for every 5 people. I don't think there are as many people slipping through the cracks in Europe.

With the 40 million uninsured, this is taking into account a period of economic recession. Previously it was not that bad. Also, included in that 40 million are the incredibly wealthy that choose not to get insurance (I've researched the number for classes), and there may be illegal immigrants in this number. I say may because I simply can't remember. The 40 million is not a true reflection.

You also have to think that there is a HUGE number of unemployed. When more jobs become available the 40 million will shrink.

The 40 million also includes people that are eligible for medicaid, and other state funded insurance programs, but there are a LOT of people that are simply too lazy to fill out the paperwork to get it, or are too proud to.

[Mish]

With the 40 million uninsured, this is taking into account a period of economic recession. Previously it was not that bad. Also, included in that 40 million are the incredibly wealthy that choose not to get insurance (I've researched the number for classes), and there may be illegal immigrants in this number. I say may because I simply can't remember. The 40 million is not a true reflection.

You also have to think that there is a HUGE number of unemployed. When more jobs become available the 40 million will shrink.

The 40 million also includes people that are eligible for medicaid, and other state funded insurance programs, but there are a LOT of people that are simply too lazy to fill out the paperwork to get it, or are too proud to.

In other words 40+ million of lazy people, who probably don't deserve it anyway, right? You know how many people are uninsured in Australia? (Take a guess)

I found this chart that I thought was interesting, it shows the spending by country on healthcare as a % of GDP. It's interesting that the country which insures the least amount of people also pays the most.



Yeh, all those European countries must have gotten it wrong

[sparkle_jello]

In other words 40+ million of lazy people, who probably don't deserve it anyway, right? You know how many people are uninsured in Australia? (Take a guess)

I found this chart that I thought was interesting, it shows the spending by country on healthcare as a % of GDP. It's interesting that the country which insures the least amount of people also pays the most.



Yeh, all those European countries must have gotten it wrong. Our system is always going to have more uninsured than others, but I personally like the system and feel that it works most of the time. There is basically two sides here... insure everyone, even people that potentially don't deserve it... or insure many, and realize that a few people that should have it slip through the cracks.

The US system isn't designed to insure everyone. Many middle class wouldn't be able to maintain their lifestyle with the HUGE increase in taxes that would be inevitable. There would be home foreclosures, and car repossession.

I think before anything permanent is put into place we need to have the economy recover more, so we can tell how bad the problem really is.

As I have previously said, the recession hasn't helped.

[Mish]

These graphs were made before recession

[sparkle_jello]

The numbers are flawed....

The Census Bureau estimates that the number of uninsured amounts to 45.7 million people. But the agency might be overcounting by millions due to faulty assumptions. Another problem: That 45.7 million figure includes undocumented immigrants, even though they aren't likely to be covered under new laws.

Clouding future projections of uninsured are tricky methods of counting them today. Even though legislation won't cover many of them, illegal immigrants are especially difficult to enumerate: Few raise their hands to be counted. Prof. Gruber estimates they make up about 13% of the uninsured today, or nearly six million people of that 45 million number.

Of the rest, some people are eligible for health insurance but don't know it and many can afford it but don't want it. About 43% of uninsured nonelderly adults have incomes greater than 2.5 times the poverty level, according to a report released Tuesday by the business-backed Employment Policies Institute.
[url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124579852347944191.html]Unhealthy Accounting of Uninsured - WSJ.com[/url]

[Mish]

The numbers are flawed....

The Census Bureau estimates that the number of uninsured amounts to 45.7 million people. But the agency might be overcounting by millions due to faulty assumptions. Another problem: That 45.7 million figure includes undocumented immigrants, even though they aren't likely to be covered under new laws.

Clouding future projections of uninsured are tricky methods of counting them today. Even though legislation won't cover many of them, illegal immigrants are especially difficult to enumerate: Few raise their hands to be counted. Prof. Gruber estimates they make up about 13% of the uninsured today, or nearly six million people of that 45 million number.

Of the rest, some people are eligible for health insurance but don't know it and many can afford it but don't want it. About 43% of uninsured nonelderly adults have incomes greater than 2.5 times the poverty level, according to a report released Tuesday by the business-backed Employment Policies Institute.
[url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124579852347944191.html]Unhealthy Accounting of Uninsured - WSJ.com[/url]

Might be? Meaning that they don't know?

But any way, let's assume that what they are saying is 100% correct. Let's deduct the whole 6 million of illegal immigrants from the total. And we end up with 39.7 million uninsured. Does that make it somehow more okay?


Actually, there is something else I found that I'm interested in your opinion on. You said before sparkle that universal health care will cause less doctors. But according to comparisons with other countries where universal health care is active US actually has less physicians, less nurses, less beds and less doctors than those countries (per 1000 of population). What do you think about this [url]http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/15/23/34970246.pdf[/url]

Excerpts:

Despite the relatively high level of health expenditure in the United States, there are fewer physicians per capita than in most other OECD countries. In 2002, the United States had 2.3 practising physicians per 1000 population, below the OECD average of 2.9

There were 7.9 nurses per 1 000 population in the United States in 2002, which is slightly lower than the average of 8.2 across OECD countries.

The number of acute care hospital beds in the United States in 2003 was 2.8 per 1 000 population, also lower than the OECD average of 4.1 beds per 1 000 population.

According to your previous arguments the universal health care should increase the shortages not decrease them?

[vashti]

I'm not reading all the posts in this thread, but in reading the last couple of posts, I want to point out that a lot of our uninsured are young adults who choose not to have insurance to save money. It's not that they can't afford the insurance - it's that they take a calculated risk that they won't need it so they can pocket the extra money.

[doppelgaenger]

Sources, Vashti. You can't just make a ridiculous, generalized claim like that and not back it up.

[vashti]

Sources, Vashti. You can't just make a ridiculous, generalized claim like that and not back it up.

Yeah, I only say this based on my personal experience. Of course, I deal with hospitalized people, so my experience is more relevant than average. However, i know the statistic for uninsured young adults is 30%, and I know the health insurance companies need these people to participate in paying their insurance bills to help offset the expense of the population with high medical expenses. You can look it up on your own if you want.

[tooxshort]

Yep ... I didn't care much about health insurance until I started a family ... I had a cheap, high deductible plan which was pretty useless because I couldn't afford the deductible anyway.

[sparkle_jello]

Might be? Meaning that they don't know?

But any way, let's assume that what they are saying is 100% correct. Let's deduct the whole 6 million of illegal immigrants from the total. And we end up with 39.7 million uninsured. Does that make it somehow more okay?


Actually, there is something else I found that I'm interested in your opinion on. You said before sparkle that universal health care will cause less doctors. But according to comparisons with other countries where universal health care is active US actually has less physicians, less nurses, less beds and less doctors than those countries (per 1000 of population). What do you think about this [url]http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/15/23/34970246.pdf[/url]

Excerpts:

Despite the relatively high level of health expenditure in the United States, there are fewer physicians per capita than in most other OECD countries. In 2002, the United States had 2.3 practising physicians per 1000 population, below the OECD average of 2.9

There were 7.9 nurses per 1 000 population in the United States in 2002, which is slightly lower than the average of 8.2 across OECD countries.

The number of acute care hospital beds in the United States in 2003 was 2.8 per 1 000 population, also lower than the OECD average of 4.1 beds per 1 000 population.

According to your previous arguments the universal health care should increase the shortages not decrease them?

The US president, over a year ago, stated that the 47 million dollar number was inflated and that the number of uninsured american's is actually 30 million, here is the web article [url=http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Obama-I-used-to-say-47-million-uninsured--Now-its-30-million-58237842.html]Obama: I used to say 47 million uninsured. Now, it's 30 million. | Washington Examiner[/url]

That lowers all the percentages we've been talking about by about a third... so it's not as bad as people are saying. And this isn't some theorist, it's the president.

[doppelgaenger]

Yeah, I only say this based on my personal experience. Of course, I deal with hospitalized people, so my experience is more relevant than average. However, i know the statistic for uninsured young adults is 30%, and I know the health insurance companies need these people to participate in paying their insurance bills to help offset the expense of the population with high medical expenses. You can look it up on your own if you want.

Well, I have health insurance, and I've had my own since I was 19 years old. The reason I demand sources, is because that frugal attitude you described is typical of me, and yet I have health insurance! Mine is pretty good quality - I have dental on there, and it covers pretty much every medical cost or has copay.

[Incognito]

Assuming that the graphs are right (which is questionable since everyone alters results and puts it into graph form to serve their own argument these days) I'd say the US spends more on health care because so many people are allowed to be on welfare and the people who supposedly police the system are themselves simply collecting a pay check. If welfare recipients were policed better (i.e. evaluated regularly for further eligibility) many would be cut off because they do nothing to change their circumstances.

[Incognito]

Well before this became the next health care debate on BBC the question was whether or not poor=lazy and rich=hard working and awesome. No neither are always true. There are some poor who are that way by choice/laziness. Others are poor because unfavorable circumstances befell them. I met a homeless woman some years back and talked to her after I gave her food and supplies. She told me that only three weeks prior she had a house and job. She had lost one job which set her back on her house payment, the new job didn't pay as much as the old one and because of the county she lived in the house was repossessed after only a few months. She said that without a house she was unable to store her belongings and lost everything because she didn't have family here. When she lost the jobs she had because of all of the stuff surrounding the house loss she wa unable to get another job because she was now considered homeless and employers were discriminating. Once they saw no address on her application it was discarded and a few even told her that she wouldn't be hired without a permanent address. Truly sad.

On the other hand not all rich are hard working and are hardly ever "awesome". Many who are rich got rich through inheritance, or by somehow taking advantage of those around them. Very few people have truly started from nothing and got rich only through hard work. It seems that in this country you either have to invent something that people will buy and sell the patent to a company or be an entertainer. Don't even get me started on the fact that a non college teacher makes between $10,000.00 and $40,000.00 yet a f*cking football player makes millions. Shaping future minds vs playing a game, hmmm... What's wrong with that picture?

[Mish]

As an outsider, this is how it looks like to me:

US is paying much more than any other OECD country for health care, not only in terms of money, but in terms of gdp, yet less people are insured and less services are provided for that money (in terms of beds, nurses physicians). There is less value for money being provided and yet the number of supporters of this system is humongous / astounding.

I don't understand it, but it doesn't matter. In the end I don't live in US and these issues will not affect me.

Anyway, I think my original question has been sufficiently answered, so thank you all.