Guantanamo Bay is an outrage

[DoesntMatter]

Ah, what the hell

America isn't even American anymore, so stop tootin' that stupid ass horn.

America was a farming society.

America was state's rights.

America was less taxing.

America was isolationist.

America was something the world had never seen.

Now it's no different from most any other power hungry civilization.

Their culture cannot accept "democracy".

You can't force revolution like that.

The people need to want it, and do it for themselves.

Way to post a heap of irrelevant statements. Every country changes, the US has changed less relative to almost every other country in its history in terms of our political processes and national attitude since our founding, until recently (in reference to dimwits like you). I love the America I grew up in. Apparently you didn’t

BTW, we weren’t exactly completely isolationist. After all, we did overthrow the Hawaiian monarchy and make it a state, invade Florida and annex it, invade the southwest and annex it, invade Mexico, considered invading Nicaragua and annexing it but didn’t because the North didn’t want anymore slave states, invaded Cuba and removed it from Spanish control, acquired Puerto Rico through these wars with Spain, and annexed the Philippines

Do you think there had to have been any cases of rape for a rumor like that to start? Hell no, but whether or not they happened, doesn't change the fact that yes, rebels will indeed use any excuse to kill American soldiers. It's called PROPAGANDA. So what, you going to change their mind on it? You're just a stupid white privileged Yankee living comfortably, playing your games and going to your fancy school. The only persons whose mind you need to change are the ones killing your beloved GI's. Good luck with that.

YOU posted that crap about rape and using it to justify killing Americans, dumbass. Now you’re saying it is THEIR propaganda, so why did you use it to justify them killing Americans like it’s a good reason to?

And when you say I need to change the minds of the ones killing “my” beloved GIs, they are yours too. They are also my uncle, cousin, and friends

And yes, I’m privileged compared to many people living in this world, but I’m pretty much average in the US. My parents aren’t rich- I got into a good school because I had the grades, SAT scores, AP scores, jobs, and extracurricular activities. My first job was for $5.15 an hour on a farm and I worked alongside migrant workers making probably $2 an hour. My second job was working at a McDonalds in the drive-thru window. I worked so I could help PAY for college. Is that considered very privileged to you?

Oh yeah, about me being a yankee, I had a relative fight for the Confederacy in the Civil War but not the North. I’m more of a Confederate by ancestry

Its not about who 'looks like the victor', DM. That is so trite I can't even believe you are mentioning it. Do you really think the international community doesn't realize the US *couldn't* go in & bomb everything to hell if they wanted? Of course, the problem is you could do that exactly ONCE & then make the whole world go to hell in a handbasket...

Have you ever read any statements by the insurgents? Maybe you didn’t understand me, but I was referring to the insurgents who wanted to look like victors by causing violence before America withdraws. They want to make it look like their violence caused our withdrawal. That isn’t “trite” by any means for fuccks sake, that would be THEIR psychological victory, and a huge one

Were you abused as a child, by chance? Your ideas about foreign policy remind me of that. If a small child were to kick your foot in anger, the subtlest response you can think of is to beat them within an inch of their life?

Ha, no, far from it, my parents have maybe disciplined me twice through my whole life because I was never some punk kid. And by that I mean sent me to my room for an hour when I was 5

Those aren’t my ideas about foreign policy, those are my ideas about fighting a war or an insurgency. The US messed up on so many grounds by considering the Iraqi mission one of nation-building and not a war. Have you ever read any books by Heinz Guderian? You should. Or similarly, John J. Pershing or William Tecumseh Sherman. They would be rolling over in their graves if they saw how this war was fought

Oh brother. He's human, DM, above all else. Grow up.

Indi, there was a line that he crossed, which you might not understand because you probably don’t have any friends in Iraq. I do, as we speak, and Frasbee is trying to justify the killing of them. Imagine me actively trying to kill your son, for instance. You know, do a drive-by on your house with a Mac-10 and unload a few clips into your home with the intention of killing him. And every time he gets on the bus, you don't know if the next bus stop is gonna have an IED waiting to go off. Then imagine Frasbee saying that based on some bullshit anti-Canadian slander, I’m justified in doing that

I'd also like to add.

America was the underdog trying to prove itself in it's early days.

We're not, anymore.

We're the oppressive world police, now.

Afghanistan was the underdog.

Iraq was the underdog.

Vietnam was the underdog.

The last time America was the underdog, could arguably be World War II.

And? Do you find it fashionable to support the underdog?

[Junket]

I figured you'd be back.

Yeah, dude, I don't much care about your family or friends in Iraq, because they're not my family or friends. In Iraq... Wait, why are they in Iraq? Oh, yeah. Because we invaded. Why are they being shot at? Oh, yeah, because they're soldiers. Shooting at soldiers?! What?! How despicable! Hell, even contractors rebuilding know the risks when they go in.

This silliness about "not supporting the war, but supporting the troops"?

DUMB.

By supporting the troops you're condoning the support for the war, if the troops have no support from home, then the odds against them will increase. Low morale can debilitate an army. By saying "I only support the troops" is like someone saying "I'm not racist...but-"

My point about the rape statement is that it doesn't need to be true to be an excuse to kill Americans.

To a foreigner, all Americans are yankees.

You're frustrated over the fact the Iraqis won't roll over. It's all pride for you, dude. That's all you care about, you wanna win, and that's that. Otherwise, there'd be no other reason to care whether they'd claim our retreat as a victory.

You act like the only way to be "American" is to support whatever the government does, when in fact that is probably the most un-American thing someone can do. France is probably more American than America. Look at their recent riots within these past years. The people get restless, and f*ck up some shit. Now that's something to admire.

And yes, I find it very fashionable to support the underdog. I'm from Philly.

You likin' this slander? Because I can feed it to you all day.

[DoesntMatter]

I figured you'd be back.

Yeah, dude, I don't much care about your family or friends in Iraq, because they're not my family or friends. In Iraq... Wait, why are they in Iraq? Oh, yeah. Because we invaded. Why are they being shot at? Oh, yeah, because they're soldiers. Shooting at soldiers?! What?! How despicable! Hell, even contractors rebuilding know the risks when they go in.

They are soldiers who want to get out of Iraq and go home. Just because they are soldiers in Iraq means they should be shot at? If they want the US out, they should stop shooting and let us leave, because that is when the commanders will let the troops come home

So yes, you can support the troops by wanting them to have a safe return. Apparently you don't really care whether my uncle comes home after he is redeployed for the 4th time. My uncle is a surgeon and in his 50s and didn't even join the Army until several years ago. He could have continued operating on Americans here, making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, but instead wanted to be with Americans being shot and killed to help them

You don't care if my uncle comes home? If you said that to my face I would put caps in your ass with a silenced weapon and drop your body in the middle of Lake Ontario after pissing on it

[IndiReloaded]

DM, I have a cousin who was in Afghanistan. And, even though that's a NATO-approved mission, if he had been killed I would be sad, but not bitter. What else do you expect when invading someone's homeland? Lots of Canadian soldiers have died over there. Somehow, tho, the attitude about things is different. Perhaps its because we aren't there without international sanction makes the difference?

And one of my husband's students is from Palestine. Let's just say the phone calls about his family hiding in their basement from the bombings are disturbing, to say the least.

I've heard both sides, DM. I'd have to say you are the one making assumptions here, kiddo.

[IndiReloaded]

They are soldiers who want to get out of Iraq and go home. Just because they are soldiers in Iraq means they should be shot at? If they want the US out, they should stop shooting and let us leave, because that is when the commanders will let the troops come home.

Oh come on, DM. You are expecting rational behaviour from ppl whose homes & country have been invaded. LOL! If the US was invaded, even if the invaders decided they made a mistake & were leaving, you bet your ass there'd be some US nutbars chasing them all the way to the border w/guns blazing. You'd be one of them, by your own admission.

People are people, no matter where they are from:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rk78eCIx4E&feature=related"]YouTube - Sting - Russians[/ame]

[DoesntMatter]

And one of my husband's students is from Palestine. Let's just say the phone calls about his family hiding in their basement from the bombings are disturbing, to say the least.

You know how that could be avoided? If PALESTINIAN TERRORISTS DIDN'T FIRE FUCCKING MISSILES INTO ISRAEL FROM WHERE CIVILIANS LIVE! Israel, to their credit, works as best as they can to kill only the terrorists. Remember like a year ago when the Palestinians were firing missiles into random parts of Israel? Israel tries for the terrorists- Palestinians want any Israeli

Indi, I know my uncle and cousin could die in Iraq but what I am saying is an outrage is that Fras is saying it is justified. Actually he is going farther than that and basically siding with the insurgents. THAT is not acceptable

[DoesntMatter]

I swear to God, the US needs a good purging

[IndiReloaded]

I think you are confusing 'justified' with 'expected'. Its expected that ppl will shoot at perceived invaders. You would, I would... why should they be any different. From their perspective, THEY didn't invite US troops into their country.

For that reason alone (and many others), I completely agree that the US should just pull out. If the country collapses into civil war, well, the same argument applies: what do THEY expect? Shoot at your troops, who are just trying to help? Well, who needs that kind of gratitude, right? Lots of things those boys could be doing better at home.

[DoesntMatter]

Actually, speaking of Palestine, Samir Kuntar was recently released to a heros welcome. Palestinians love this man, and he's a monster. That is what is sad, it isn't some fringe element in Palestine welcoming this guy, they rolled out the red carpet for him

Compare that to Israel. Sorry, but Palestine and Israel are not equal. Israel easily takes the moral high ground

[IndiReloaded]

Oh, I agree Palestine is generally less civilized. But, the history there is complicated.

I wish Einstein had taken up the presidency. I wonder if things might have been different. Probably not, but... maybe.

[DoesntMatter]

If I could vote for anyone out of American history to be president right now, it would be General John J. Pershing. Or General Sherman

But just a fantasy of mine for the future of the US, I would love to see us develop a better relationship with Germany. They have proven more than any other country that they can kick ass

[Gribble]

DM, have you ever read accounts of the battles in Tunisia during WWII? When the first Tiger tank rolled onto the battlefield it was almost invulnerable. Shells from close range couldn't penetrate that armor. Can you imagine what an enormous load you would have dumped if you were working a French gun back then, pouring one 75mm shell after another into one of those monsters to no effect?

Whenever I think of Germany and ass-kicking I think of the Tiger.

[Junket]

You don't care if my uncle comes home? If you said that to my face I would put caps in your ass with a silenced weapon and drop your body in the middle of Lake Ontario after pissing on it

Blah blah blah.

Shut up.

All you've been doing is taking your frustrations with the Iraqis out on members of a love forum.

[Gribble]

Fras, I couldn't disagree with you more. Those troops are brave young men and women who have no real say in what's been forced on them. And I do care about them. Each and every one. I don't watch televised news because I'm absolutely disgusted that when Heath Ledger and that disgusting bitch, Anna Nicole Smith croaked it was all we heard about. Meanwhile a twenty year old boy had his stomach torn apart by shrapnel and died horribly while forced to bring democracy to cowards who won't stand up and take it for themselves.

I want our soldiers pulled out alive and I want Bush handed over to Al-Qaeda to do with as they please.

[Lipp]

Probably pointless, but oh well. Point out if I've misunderstood.

DM, it does sound as if you have a lot of support for the troops and what they do, not only in general but also as shown on a personal level. And that what they have to go through, such as how they are killed in the field or what happens when they are captured, is the cause for a lot of angst.

But to be honest, it is not comparable. First off, war is horrible to those who experience it, but as far as I know joining the army is a voluntary choice (unlike Sweden who has universal conscription), so they are off fighting a war because they signed up. And still you, your family and most of the U.S has a peaceful life on the other side of the world.
And if you still have so much hatred , how can you deny them hating American troops who represent a country that has shattered their lives entirely?
Who's invasion has lead to several of their relatives, and family members, being killed? Aren't civilian deaths along the lines of ten-fold or more than of U.S soldiers by now?
Or perhaps how many of them have to join militias and become combatants after the country has collapsed into anarchy once any form of leadership is gone and religious beliefs bloom?
Or do you have to worry about whether you will survive taking a trip through the city with all the bombs going off?
Or hope that you don't live next to militants and thus get killed by smart bombs being dumb?
Or decide to leave the country after gunmen have killed your sons?

And the cause of much of this? Guess.
If you have this much anger without facing what the Iraqi population has to, well, then I'm no longer surprised about the existence of suicide bombers.



As a note, you have to admit that the "murderer tactics" are extremely effective. A world superpower has a lot of trouble stabilizing a pretty average country in the middle-east. You can't always expect them to fight on your own terms, and it's working.