Army

[Perryville]

My, MY, Cam, you've spewed a lot of venom at me considering that I haven't been here. BTW there is nothing stopping you from re-enlisting, and getting first-hand experience, is there? I never presume to voice opinions about things I'm not qualified for, or have experience with. I don't speak about brain surgery, glass-blowing, homosexuality, or professional Basketball, among other things, because I haven't experienced them. That is ALL I'm saying. If you want to argue some intellectual point, I'll oblige on another thread, so as not to thread-jack any more than we already have. I believe, getting back to the point, that the Military offers opportunities, especially for low and middle income people, that they would not otherwise have, because of cost.

[Aeradalia]

Do you think that service is beneficial to young men?

No... I think the service is beneficial to the country.

In peace time it might give a sense of structure young men need... but it's not a form of structure that is really applicable to civilian life. Many of the men in my family have had to readjust to life outside the services with a little friction.

In war time... the service is beneficial to no soldier... as it's not meant to be. It puts stress on their loved ones... and if they're not killed in battle, it can scar them mentally as well as physically for life.

The military is a necessary evil that uses the best of humanity (loyalty, commitment, honor... etc among the ranks) to do the most atrocious thing in the world --- kill other people directly (the bad guys) and indirectly (women, children, and other innocent bystanders). And it risks the lives of our own to carry out its purpose.

Do not look to the military as a means of producing a good quality man for dating/marriage purposes. It's meant to produce a soldier -- never forget that.

[Junket]

No... I think the service is beneficial to the country.

In peace time it might give a sense of structure young men need... but it's not a form of structure that is really applicable to civilian life. Many of the men in my family have had to readjust to life outside the services with a little friction.

In war time... the service is beneficial to no soldier... as it's not meant to be. It puts stress on their loved ones... and if they're not killed in battle, it can scar them mentally as well as physically for life.

The military is a necessary evil that uses the best of humanity (loyalty, commitment, honor... etc among the ranks) to do the most atrocious thing in the world --- kill other people directly (the bad guys) and indirectly (women, children, and other innocent bystanders). And it risks the lives of our own to carry out its purpose.

Do not look to the military as a means of producing a good quality man for dating/marriage purposes. It's meant to produce a soldier -- never forget that.

Your logic is uncanny.

Where've you been all this time?

I was in Dallas for Christmas y'know.

[chump4u]

Every contributor to this thread was correct. Every contributor to this thread was half-wittedly incorrect. You cannot rationally discuss a proposition for which there is no correct answer.

This discussion therefore made very little sense.

My credentials: Twenty-two years Army service, active and reserve (six active, sixteen active reserve), eighteen months of that service in Vietnam (and no, I do not brag about it; and no, you cannot understand).

Damn!

[CAM]

BTW there is nothing stopping you from re-enlisting, and getting first-hand experience, is there?

Actually, there is something health-wise that is preventing me from re-enlisting. Right after 9/11, I asked for a waiver to re-enlist, but the Army's answer was "no." As a civilian, then, I support your effort any way I can--time or resources--because that's what I should do and must do in what will become a protracted conflict.

[shheadz]

I know, I know...it sounds like semantics, but in fact it sets the very tone which I've been essentially pointing out which is highly problemmatic. Among the younger generation of VFW people...they tend to divide themselves into those who have served on the battlefield and those who haven't. Your doing that shit to me right now, ya know?

Ah geez.. It is semantics. On my level doesn't imply superiority, or inferiority. Also there is nothing new about vets with combat experience feeling divided from those without. It's not some new phenomenon, and it has nothing to do with a feeling of superiority, or disdain for those without the experience.

Furthermore has it crossed your mind that a vet's combat experience was very traumatic, emotional, and something they just don't want to talk about? Just because they'll talk about their experiences amongst each other, that doesn't mean they feel comfortable talking about it with you.

Remind me: wasn't I just told that reading books won't increase my understanding or knowledge level?

No, you completely missed the point. It doesn't even matter. I'm beginning to feel like I'm in some kind of dick swinging contest, and it's just pointless.

[CAM]

Ah geez.. It is semantics. On my level doesn't imply superiority, or inferiority. Also there is nothing new about vets with combat experience feeling divided from those without. It's not some new phenomenon, and it has nothing to do with a feeling of superiority, or disdain for those without the experience.

Furthermore has it crossed your mind that a vet's combat experience was very traumatic, emotional, and something they just don't want to talk about? Just because they'll talk about their experiences amongst each other, that doesn't mean they feel comfortable talking about it with you.



No, you completely missed the point. It doesn't even matter. I'm beginning to feel like I'm in some kind of dick swinging contest, and it's just pointless.

The conversation related to my first comment didn't start out with the more amenable tone above, so realize that.

Only now is my capacity to consider the position of another being appealed to by you. And, since the beginning, I have said that I always strive to further develop the capacity to connect a few dots.

Of course, I would never claim to understand precisely what it is like to be a combat soldier but with some capacity to reason and with some capacity to understand human emotion and response....well, let's put it this way: a reasoned and curious person could at least connect enough dots to know that is something that most will not experience and something that nearly all would never want to.

The vast majority of people I've met who would brag or inflate their egos in claiming to have been in combat are either mentally deranged, guys drumming up business ops, politicians, liars, or all of the above. I think that the Vietnam vet who posted earlier quietly made the same point when he said that he doesn't brag about his service in the field in Vietnam.

Though just a former reservist, I think I'm still qualified to say: Go Army.

[Aeradalia]

Your logic is uncanny.

Where've you been all this time?

I was in Dallas for Christmas y'know.

Haven't been up to too much evil... just same old, same old.

As for my logic... you're looking at the culmination of several generations of military service in my family... along with my own brief experiences. Besides, it's commonsense if you think about it. Why would the military care to produce soldiers fit for stable relationships, when their goal is to win battles?

[Aeradalia]

As for the battle-hardened soldiers versus those who served during peace-time... I believe it's well understood that any soldier, at any time can be called into battle... and could die. The fact that a person enlisted... put themselves up for that lottery should count for something... whether or not it was "their time" to be drawn.

As for giving respect to those who were in battle -- of course that is given. I doubt anyone here is asshole enough to disregard the plight of a man (or woman) dodging bullets and bombs all in the name of a country they love (or at the very least, trying to survive being drafted). So for those with short tempers on the subject, relax... there is no disrespect here.

And to prevent further argument on other tangents... soldiers generally do their job... and do their job exceedingly well. It's not their fault or responsibility for political implications of the wars (or god forbid, "police actions") they happen to be a participant in. If you don't like the politics -- don't take it out on soldiers... follow it to the source --- the politicians, and ultimately you for having voted for them (or worse, wasting your voice by not voting at all).

Thank you... I shall now stand down from the soap box...

[Perryville]

Cam, thanks at least for saying that you really don't understand combat. I wish, deeply, that I had no knowledge of it either. Then maybe I wouldn't have the problems I have now with my knee and shoulder. I truly would never wish this on anybody. The emotional problems (at least for me) haven't been as bad, because my Dad is a Vietnam vet, and prepared me somewhat for what I would see and do. I guess this is a benefit of having a Military Family.

[Junket]

Cam, thanks at least for saying that you really don't understand combat. I wish, deeply, that I had no knowledge of it either. Then maybe I wouldn't have the problems I have now with my knee and shoulder. I truly would never wish this on anybody. The emotional problems (at least for me) haven't been as bad, because my Dad is a Vietnam vet, and prepared me somewhat for what I would see and do. I guess this is a benefit of having a Military Family.

My dad is a Vietnam vet.

Well not really, my dad lived in Saigon during the war and translated for the American soldiers, and got the ride out when the United States pulled.

Looking back, I wouldn't agree with the war either, but I guess I don't mind the deaths and injuries of thousands of men and women for the sake of me being born.

[IndiReloaded]

No offense to those who serve, but there is no way I would want to send my son to Afghanistan. Canada is famous for giving out just enough funding for any important initiative to fail.

Its not the service I object to, but the conditions. In Canada, the Armed Forces gets a grudging nod financially from our government. Our aircraft are old, our helicopters in bare existence, we have NO aircraft carriers...our Coast Guard has no teeth to protect littoral waters. Its a complete joke, in fact, to the point its pretty much a national crisis.

At least in the US many of your politicians HAVE served, which is why I suspect the armed forces gets the funding it needs. It would have helped if you had the concomitant leadership at the time of Iraq, but at least you had the resources however badly managed.

What I support is armed forces, education and research funding, but a well-managed system. With a clear plan. Not handing out cheques piecemeal to the squeaky wheel.

[Junket]

No offense to those who serve, but there is no way I would want to send my son to Afghanistan. Canada is famous for giving out just enough funding for any important initiative to fail.

Its not the service I object to, but the conditions. In Canada, the Armed Forces gets a grudging nod financially from our government. Our aircraft are old, our helicopters in bare existence, we have NO aircraft carriers...our Coast Guard has no teeth to protect littoral waters. Its a complete joke, in fact, to the point its pretty much a national crisis.

At least in the US many of your politicians HAVE served, which is why I suspect the armed forces gets the funding it needs. It would have helped if you had the concomitant leadership at the time of Iraq, but at least you had the resources however badly managed.

What I support is armed forces, education and research funding, but a well-managed system. With a clear plan. Not handing out cheques piecemeal to the squeaky wheel.

Well if you guys would finally join the United States as our 52nd state you wouldn't have to worry about that. And we would have plenty of penguins for our zoos.

[Aeradalia]

Looking back, I wouldn't agree with the war either, but I guess I don't mind the deaths and injuries of thousands of men and women for the sake of me being born.

I doubt I'm worth anywhere near that much... I'd gladly trade my life back... if it would give them back the use of their limbs, their minds... and give back their lives.

[Aeradalia]

Well if you guys would finally join the United States as our 52nd state you wouldn't have to worry about that. And we would have plenty of penguins for our zoos.

Would we still have to call it Canada though?