Zekk vs. Billy: Closemindedness

[Zekk_T_Strife]

I had a customer and had to log off and I leave work here in 35 minutes. It takes like a year to log back on to AIM after I've logged off on this ancient laptop. Worry not, I'll be on again sometime soon....hopefully.

[squirrley]

Ok I forgive you...Id rather you be selln anyhow!

[BillyGalbreath]

ok - well I guess we cant debate on it then unless you're like way into like I am. Space is one of those subjects that I am just really really into and studied alot on.

Ok. I don't believe we ever been to the moon. I mean come on. If you were to actually sit down and gather up all the facts that we (normal citizens) have, and you add a bit of common sence to it, then yeah, none it makes any sence at all.

Yeah if you take out common sence, or you just look at it for what the government and media tells us, then yeah - it seems perfectly logical. We have pictures, video tapes, we even have NASA for crying out loud. We got really cool space ships that fly into outer space, etc etc. It all looks good.

They have the sip go up into space and then broadcast down a live feed thru radio (or now a days satalite) waves. Seeing that these waves travel very fast it is perfectly logical to have a live feed that is only 10 seconds delayed. It adds up perfectly. And then the government and NASA's theory about how it will take a day or two, hell maybe even a week, to send a signal from Mars to here or vice versa. Perfectly logical. Again. The math adds up.

Then you start thinking about what space is. Nothing. Total emptiness. No molecules at all. Essentually a vacuum. There is no air molecules to breath or create warmth in space, so it is 0K (Kalvin or -200 something Celcius) degrees out there. Perfectly logical.

For each action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So in space you cant flap your arms around and "swim" back to your ship. YUou have to use jet packs that thro out oxygen molecules thats creates kenetic energy that will push you opposite of where the oxygen is flowing. Again. Perfectly logical.

We have figured out (or theorized as I like to say) how space works. But yet again, we havent been there. And if we have the government is not telling us the truth.

First off - lets look at the most obvious of things. Radio waves. Back during the time of the "landing on the moon" we didnt have satalite crap, so lets focus mainly on back then with the Radio waves. What is a radio wave ? They are compressed air molecules that sread out from a source as waves. A receiving in will have an antanea that will read these waves of compressed air. Its not digitalized, its analog, so the signal is not that great. Still works the same as digital crap. Reads on or off (0's and 1's) but since its analog its never a perfect 0 or a perfect 1. Thus poor quality. Anyways. To get the 0's it is uncompressed air. The 1 is compressed air. So you send out a bunch of this compressed and uncompressed air waves fast enough, you can eventually pick them up on a receiving end, and decode the 0's and 1's with a machine that will relay the message to humans in a way we can understand (i.e. sounds and/or visualizations).

Ok now that we covered what a radio wave is, how the hell are there radio waves in space ? There is nothing that can be compressed or even left uncompressed. Nothing. No waves can be formed. No sound can travel. No waves can travel. Nothing but energy may travel. Thats why you can still see in space. Light is energy.

So - we have blocked out that space travel cannot have radio waves thus means we can't have live feeds, visual or audio, of our space missions. Thus we can come to 1 of 2 conclusions - the government has lied to us about even going out into space and they are just trying to sound cool or whatever. Or they have lied to us and made it seem better than it really is, which I have no idea why they would do this)...

I will go into one more aspect of this and then I will leave the rest up to you all to decide. Space travel period. So yeah - it is possible to travel thru space without contact with earth. It would be very scary, but it is still possible. But as I said before. Each action has an opposite and equal reaction.

How does the spaceship travel ? Fire ? right ? Its shoots off fire and it flies really really fast ! ooooh !! soo cool ! Yeah - this would work if it was within the earths atmosphere so that the flames would actually be burning something to cause heat which would push the ship forward... But since we are in space, lets take out the oxygen. The flame dies. No flame. No thrust.

Oh wait. I dont know how space ships work really either. So lets say they have something on there that will spit out O2 (oxygen) into the lfames to keep them lit. Ok this is all good. So we still go fire out in space. Now what ? What are the flames pushing off of ? Air ? Water ? Something else ? Try nothing. You cannot go forward without pushing something backwards.

Ok - I didn't go into too much detail about these two things, but I think I have said enough to get the point across.

There are many many many things I have thought of that just cannot happen out in space the way NASA and the government are saying is happening. I can Scientifically prove that these things CANT happen. Its litterally impossible.

But if anyone feels that I am dead wrong. Please. Step up to the plate and lets discuss the facts.

[MVPlaya]

You are dead wrong, but I'll let Zekk try to take care of that.

I'll just point out one fallacy for ya: radiowaves are light, not sound. The visible electromagnetic spectrum or radiant energy focuses between .4 miu meters to .7 miumeters, radio waves are the length of one micron (10^6 miu meters). Its radiant energy, not sound.

[BillyGalbreath]

Incorrect - what you are explaining is a satalite wave. I am talking old-school radio waves they used back in 1967, or whenever they claimed to have landed on the moon.

Those old-school radio waves are compressed air molecules.

Know your facts before you try to knock me.

[blue_moon2]

lol. u sooooooo competative..hehe

bet i could give ya a run 4 ya money

[BillyGalbreath]

I am not competitive - i just like debating - the best debates are when I am wrong - I end up learning something new for the next debate. But I never debate without hardcore facts. FACTS. What I consider to be facts are scientifically proven. Anything else is just theory. Which in return brings us to the fact that all major facts are just theories. The only facts that count in a debate are basic facts (i.e. radio waves are compressed air molecules). You can't say space travel is a fact because the government or NASA says so. Where is the evidence ? Video ? History books ? Science class ? This is not a fact. If you believe what the government and/or NASA says then it is your theory, because how are YOU going to prove that they went into space ? But then again my beliefs are theory also. I can use scientific facts that make space travel impossible, but I am sure someone else can point out scientific facts that DO make it possible. I'm just waiting to hear them.

And no, I dont knock anyone's theories. If you were to tell me something I never knew before I would look at it from a scientific point of view and then base my decisions on my findings and share them back with you, it just so happens that I am 85% correct ussually and I can prove the other persons statement false or n/a.

Competitive ? No. Trying to expand the minds of myself and the others I debate with ? Yes. A debate allows both sides to open their minds and look at all the things and hopefully if its a good enough debate, both sides will learn from it.

[BillyGalbreath]

The problem with most people today is they dont look at the big picture. Most people will open their eyes and see a box. And most people will go up to the box and try to figure out what it is by looking on the outside of the box, and then on the inside of the box. They will sit there and study it for days and days trying to figure it out. Looking at labels for who it belongs to, looking at the contents to figure out why the things are in the box.

But most people dont take a step back and look at where the box is. They dont see the table that its sitting on. They dont see the mail room that its sitting in thats in a FedEx warehouse. They dont see the FedEx uniform they are wearing and they dont realize that they are the carrier that must deliver that box.

I know that is a cheesy ass example, but think about it and you will see.

[Zekk_T_Strife]

While I took the time to read your posts on this, I still have to admit my disinterest in the whole thing. I haven't so much as thought of physics since my senior year in high school so I can't get into the radiowaves discussion. I can only ask a few questions.

1. Have you done your research on your theories? Did you go to look up what kind of propulsion systems spacecraft uses while out of the Earth's atmosphere? It sounds mostly like you're assuming the kind of technology that they're using. Not concrete enough, just sounds theoretical coming from your own mind.

2. I personally witnessed a shuttle launch. I saw the thing go straight up until you could no longer see it. Where do you suppose it went after that? Basic spacecraft schematics shows there aren't engines powerful enough on the sides of the craft that would allow it to go really high, turn and go land somewhere else after that huge launch.

Again, I have never studied space travel, nor do I have any real desire to. I'm perfectly content not caring about it but it sounded like MVP was holding something back. I'd like to hear you two debate seeing as how you're both informed on the subject. We could all learn something new.

[BillyGalbreath]

Not concrete enough, just sounds theoretical coming from your own mind.................Again, I have never studied space travel, nor do I have any real desire to. I'm perfectly content not caring about it but it sounded like MVP was holding something back. I'd like to hear you two debate seeing as how you're both informed on the subject. We could all learn something new.

Exactly - these are my theories. From the knowledge that I have aquired over time and school is how I base these theories. Thats why i did not say I was dead right and no one can prove me wrong. I AM open for new knowledge and if I am wrong them someone please tell me where I am wrong and I will try to prove that wrong. If I cant prove something wrong, then I automatically take it in as fact. It may not be scientists fact, but it is my own personal fact. Until someone proves me wrong then I stick with my facts.

But thats how I have aquired alot of my knowledge. Thru debates. Prove me wrong, and I will believe you and then teach what you teach me. I prove you wrong then you should do the same. Thats how I work at least. Its a great way to expand ones knowledge on a wide variety of subjects.

But I do have to admit something. MVP got me thinking about that whole radio wave thing. He is correct. Radio waves are not compressed air waves. I must have learned that in the past and not been able to prove it wrong, so I took it in as fact. But today I was told by my co-workers g/f (she works at NASA) what a radio wave is and how they work. She thinks I am an idiot for my "we didn't go to the mon theory" btw. lol.

But yes. Radio waves are another form of electromagnetic radiation. (Visible light and ultraviolet light are other examples) There is a whole spectrum of electromagnetic radiation. This radiation travels in waves. The smaller the waves the greater the frequency.There are several different frequencies at which we can transmit signals, i.e. AM & FM radio. Also on the EM spectrum are X-rays. here is a good website about radio: [url]http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/radio-spectrum1.htm[/url]

EM waves do not require air to work. Visible light and UV light manages to go billions of miles through space and reaches us just fine doesn't it? We have skin cancer and growing plants to prove it.

So MVP won that aspect of the debate. Now tell me how the damn ship can travel off of fire and the flames not burn out and/or the fire actually give the ship a thrust when there is nothing for the flames to push off of in space.

[MVPlaya]

Incorrect - what you are explaining is a satalite wave. I am talking old-school radio waves they used back in 1967, or whenever they claimed to have landed on the moon.

Those old-school radio waves are compressed air molecules.

Know your facts before you try to knock me.

Hah, watch and learn

Sattelites:

• The first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, was launched into orbit around Earth in 1957. 10 years before 1967. Do you really believe they used an AM broadcaster to send waves to the moon?
  
  On 31 January 1958, a US Army Jupiter-C rocket launched Explorer I, the first American satellite, into earth orbit.
  
  Also, there is no such thing as a satellite wave, satellites use radio waves, they just operate at different frequencies (4 Ghz to 6 Ghz).

Radio waves:

• Mechanical waves, such as sound, require a medium through which to travel, while electromagnetic waves (see electromagnetic radiation) do not require a medium and can be propagated through a vacuum. Radio waves come from the portion of the electromagnetic spectrum at a lower frequency than microwaves.

For future reference:

The electromagnetic spectrum ranges from waves of long wavelength (low frequency) to those of short wavelength (high frequency); it comprises, in order of increasing frequency (or decreasing wavelength): very-low-frequency to ultrahigh-frequency radio waves, microwaves, infrared radiation, visible light, ultraviolet radiation, X rays, and gamma rays. In a vacuum, all waves of the electromagnetic spectrum travel at the same speed: 299,792,458 m/sec (186,282 mi/sec).

Edit: I just noticed you agreed with the radio waves so cool.

If Zekk ain't interested, I can post my first opposition speech, I'll address everything you say.

[Prodigal]

Billy,

I am pretty sure that there are particles in space... almost all of which are hydrogen. They are just spaced far apart. If there were no particles in space and it was just a huge vacuum (in a way, it is... but if you go out into space unprotected, I heard you would freeze first), then how do you explain the formation of planets, stars, etc? They had to form from SOMETHING. I thought that the theory was that the solar system (and all other cosmic material for that matter) formed because particles of hydrogen, etc. came together and were held together by each other's gravity (or something like that). New stars are still forming today, which suggests that there ARE particles in space still. How does the Earth get warmed? The sun sends out radiation waves. These radiation waves are usually made up of high (but sometimes low) frequency particles. I think this is enough to substantiate that there are particles in space, and many of them. However, the particles aren't very close together.

Radio waves may be able to travel through this, but I would think that the wave would be very weak or disrupted. I don't know much about how these sorts of waves work.

As for exploring the moon, I don't know if I believe it. The gravity and everything seems right... but why would the flag be waving? There shouldn't be any wind on the moon, assuming that there is no atmosphere (which is what NASA says).

As for moving in space, I suppose you are right. I think the astronauts propel themselves off of objects (such as grounded parts of the shuttle or space station. I've never seen them propel themselves through the air without pushing off of something. This is true when they are outside the shuttle, too- When they do work, they are always holding on to a part of the ship.

Don't think that contributed anything, but I saw a couple of debatable points in your argument.

[BillyGalbreath]

There is nothing in space, Prodigal. No molecules what so ever. Total emptiness. Pressure 0. Gravity 0. Its not even a vacuum when you sit and think about it. It is just space. Useless and uneeded space. Well I think its uneeded. hehe.


The only reason people call it a vacuum is because for our bodies to live we need pressure. The earths atmosphere is roughly about 12psi. This is what holds our bodies intact. Think about putting our bodies under more pressure, like deep sea diving. We would implode ourselves. The pressure would break our bones and basiclly just sqeeze us into nothing. Not really nothing, but it will kill us. Now if you go 2 miles under water and grab one of those fish that have to live down there and you pull it up to the surface, its going to fall apart. Not explode or implode or anything. It will just be like it just melted right before your eyes and died. This would be the same thing that would happen to our bodies in space. Yes you heard me. We would just fall apart at a molecular level until we just disolved into nothing. Our solid bodies would spread out into space as if we were a gas let out into the earths atmosphere.

But yes, our bodies will freeze up to a solid ice mass because there is no heat source. For heat there must be an atmosphere to heat up. Since there is nothing for the sun rays to hit in space, there is nothing to warm up. Thats why is is 0K (Kalvin) up there.

Ok, then how does the moon have 280F temps during its daytime peak then, do you ask ? Hmm. good question. But the answer is simple. The moon has days that last for 2 weeks at a time. The morning is cooler than most, but it still warms the SURFACE of the moon. There is no atmosphere to heat up so it is still cold even 1 inch above the surface. You wont even feel heat coming off the surface of the moon because there is no atmosphere to heat up. But place your hand on the moons surface and you will feel the heat. But its not going to be 280 all the time. Just like the earth we have a hot part of the day (ussually 12-3pm in Houston), thus so the moon has its hot parts of the day. The hottest part of its day reaches temps of aound 280F.

0K cannot be produced, naturally or synthetically, on earth. 0k, or 'absolute zero' is the coldest tempurature that scientists believe can ever get. Everything will freeze into a solid mass at this temputrature. So far the only thing we have ever found to be this cold is space. Which brings me to the definition of cold. There i sno such thing as cold. Only lack of heat. If you want to get cooler, you take away the heat. Simple. So where there is no molecules that are there to become heated (i.e. space), then you have 0 heat, and thus the coldest tempurature has been reached. You cannot get any colder because there is nothing else left to remove. You cannot make things colder. Thats impossible. You can just remove the heat. 0K. Absolute Zero.

That is why our bodies do not fall apart at a molecular level and just seem to dislove into space. There is nothing there to allow the molecules to live so that they can freely move. If you know anything about chemestry, then you will know this. Gases have molecules that are freely movable. They go whereever they want when they want. These molecules are ussually at higher temps (i.e. steam). Liquids are cooler so the molecules get bunched closer together, thus making them not as movable, but still movable (i.e. water). Solids are the coldest, and the molecules are bunched so close together they can barely move, but yet they still move just a bit. At 0K even the solids will freeze to a point where nothing moves. No molecules can freely move at all. Dead. Nothing. Absolute Zero. Now you see why the human body will freeze up solid in space and not fall apart.

Now about the sun warming us with ray particles. These particles are not particles at all, my friend. It is light. Light is not a mass. It doesnt have a molecular mask. It is nothing. Pure energy. Light cannot be trapped in a box, ingested, smelled, tasted, or felt. Cant feel light you might laugh ? Correct you cannot feel light. Not even its rays. The light from the sun we dont feel. How does this explain the heat rays I feel when I stand out under the sun, you may ask ? Simple. The rays heat up the earths atmosphere. We feel the atmospere's heat. Not the sun's.

And about your theory about how planets are formed, it is sounding like you believe in the big bang theory. I dont happen to believe in this theory, nor do I believe in any other theories about how planets are made. To be honest this aspect of space I have not come to terms with yet and consquently I am confused by it all. Forming of planets is a whole nother section of study than space. Yes they may go hand in hand, but it is its own study, and I am not into that study too deeply. So I cannot explain anything about the forming of planets.

[Zekk_T_Strife]

but why would the flag be waving? There shouldn't be any wind on the moon

There isn't, the flag waves artificially, electronically. They wired it for fun I guess.

[BillyGalbreath]

There isn't, the flag waves artificially, electronically. They wired it for fun I guess.

So thats how they did it ? To be honest I never even knew the flag waved at all. All the vids I've seen have the flag still. Motionless except for when the guy is moving it, then it would wave for a few seconds on its own.

And the only reason it waved then is because it is kenetic energy starting from the man's hand and going thru the pole vibrating it causing more kenetic energy to flow to the flag and produce more vibrations the further out the pole until it finally reaches the flag and the flag will then move with the pole but only the part that is touching the pole, then it would spread out thru the cloth (or whatever material it is) as a wave form, much like the wind does to flags on earth. the pole's vibrations will then slowly disipate seeing as the pole is a solid and all solids tend to go back to their original state of motionless. Then the cycle will repeat, but backwards. Slowly stopping the waving motions up the pole then the flag will stop moving because the pole is no longer moving and then the waves will stop in the flag because nothing is moving.

Murphey's (or someone's) law: Each action has an equal and opposite reaction.

BUT - maybe they do have it electronically wired. idk. But if they dont have it wired, then the above explenation will tell you why the flag will wave in space.