Did I Assault Her?

[VincenzoG91]

she sounds like a psycho

She is passionate and intense about her beliefs, and I've always admired that about her. I was once the same way, but over time I became more cynical and less intense.

[smackie9]

Ya because she started causing you grief with her manipulative behavior.....you are only responding to how she treats you.

[VincenzoG91]

I'm so sorry Vince..I know what has transpired is all confusing and your mind is going in all directions trying sort out what happened, BUT that's the problem here...no one can recount to what happened clearly..that's pretty scary. You both were in a blind rage. It's like an alcoholic that can't remember anything because they had a black out.

I agree, except that I honestly don't believe that I was in a blind rage at any point. I very clearly remember declaring that she needed to settle down just before I grabbed her wrists. I do remember now that my statement was in response to her shouting "What are you doing?" as I reached for her. In hindsight, she was scared because she didn't know why I was reaching for her. Originally, it was to guide her out the door, but after she flipped out, it was to stop the hitting.

She just got off work and sent me a flurry of texts. I responded to a couple. The tone is angry, but she also really wants to talk, which is unusually quick for her. Normally I am very direct in communication, but this isn't the right time. I'm going to let her know that I'm not ready to talk yet. It's even true. Today was also a very challenging day at work, and I'm still sick. Right now I'm really tired.

[VincenzoG91]

Ya because she started causing you grief with her manipulative behavior.....you are only responding to how she treats you.

It could be that I'm just reacting to her right now. But I have trouble seeing her as manipulative, because she's very lacking in subtlety. She is very quick to speak directly when she wants or needs something, she only bothers with a coy smile when it's blatantly obvious that the answer is going to be no anyway.

[IndiReloaded]

Let it go Vince. Break up, but not just yet. The power change will make her hostile and perhaps reaccuse you of assault. Let some time pass, be cool. But by end of February, I want to read you have decided to move on. This relationship is toxic to you both.

[VincenzoG91]

Let it go Vince. Break up, but not just yet. The power change will make her hostile and perhaps reaccuse you of assault. Let some time pass, be cool. But by end of February, I want to read you have decided to move on. This relationship is toxic to you both.

I think that's a good strategy, and I'm giving it serious consideration. For now, I'm going to try to work through the issues. I see three specific ones to address:

1. The specific argument about germs. It doesn't matter to me who is right. I looked at her links, and her facts are fine. I will let her know that I agree, and the whole argument could have been avoided if she had calmly presented her information without becoming rude or insulting.

2. The alleged assault. We are both mistaken about some of the specifics of what happened that night. It was sudden, quick, and then over, and neither one of us clearly perceived what happened. The important thing is that she needs to understand that I didn't punch her or in any way intentionally strike her. If she is unable or unwilling to realize that, then she has a fundamental misunderstanding of who I am. After more than nine years together, that's absurd. If I was the kind of guy who would punch a woman, maybe it would have happened during one of two serious arguments back in 2004, before I took the anger management class. Or more likely, it would have happened two years ago, when I found that she had cheated on me for years. It's not going to suddenly happen because of a trivial argument about germs.

3. Her self-esteem. I don't mind debating a topic with somebody. I'm not obsessed with winning a debate, I'm interested in wrestling with the ideas and sorting through facts and discovering the truth. Sometimes I'm wrong, and I learn something valuable in the process. Sometimes I'm right, and if I'm lucky, I persuaded somebody to change his mind. And it's okay if we just don't agree, as long as we both got to express our sides. But she gets too easily worked up in an argument, and will sometimes even stoop to insults and personal attacks if she gets frustrated. Sometimes she will even become infuriated and demand to know why I just can't admit that I'm wrong. From my standpoint, that's a ridiculous way to debate. Insults and personal attacks will never persuade me, they only cause me to lose respect for the other person. It's like Godwin: once somebody has resorted to name-calling, I consider the debate to be over, and the person who did the name-calling has forfeited on a technicality. Anyway, the problem is she sometimes has self-esteem issues, and seeks a self-esteem boost by aggressively trying to prove me wrong about something. It would be much more positive if she just asked me to say something nice and encouraging, which I would be happy to do. That's win-win, instead of a zero-sum debate with exactly one winner and one loser.

Anyway, I think she is anxious to talk soon. There were quite a few text messages last night, but it wasn't working well as communication, because her malfunctioning phone is only letting her see the top row of each of my texts.

[IndiReloaded]

Awful lot of judging going on b/t you. Even in your arguments. I don't know, Vince. My marriage was a very frustrated one and, in hindsight, it's not b/c either of us were bad people, just very incompatible. Now, your GF's background makes your situation a lot more difficult, as does your own response style to conflict.

I can tell you that being with someone who's conflict style compliments your own makes these kinds of moments much easier to weather. Even the delays in communication... your whole way of interacting with each other seems off to me. No real trust, no true caring about the impact of your actions on the other... really I urge you to let this go. It can be so much better than this with the right person.

[VincenzoG91]

My email to her:

We really need to talk soon. Here are some proposed topics:

1. Germs.
2. What happened the other night.
3. Healthy conflict resolution.

1. Germs: this was potentially an important and useful discussion, but I was really not interested in engaging in an intense debate the other night. I wanted to table the discussion and talk about something else. I realize that you wanted to persuade me, but you went about badly. I will never be persuaded by insults or a rude tone of voice. I am interested in facts and logic, and would have been willing to look at your links when I had some time to relax and think.

2. What Happened: once you called me an idiot, it really was time for you to leave. No good could have come of you staying, because you were clearly angry. The argument became moot, because you had moved on to a personal insult that was irrelevant to the discussion. And it was unlikely that we were going to be able to move past that point and have a nice evening watching Netflix together. I am sorry that I didn't explain more clearly what I was doing, but I was reaching for your shoulder to guide you towards the door. Legally, I suppose the proper procedure would have been to call the police and ask them to remove a trespasser from my home. Instead, I acted informally and attempted to guide you towards the door, as I would any guest who had overstayed the welcome. Since my intentions were apparently unclear to you, I can understand that you reacted badly.

What happened after that was unexpected and chaotic. Our versions don't match up, and that really bothered me yesterday. It doesn't make sense for either of us to lie, because we're talking to each other, and we were both there. Like I tried to text you yesterday, google "Rashomon." Or better yet, google "Rashomon effect." I think that we both perceived events differently, and if we did a slow, calm walkthrough, we can accurately fit our versions together and reconstruct what really happened. I am absolutely certain of one thing: I did not punch you. I do not punch women, period. If I was ever going to punch you, it would have been two years ago, when I discovered that you had been cheating on me for years. Except, I don't punch women. And if I ever make an exception to that rule, it is going to be about saving somebody's life, not a reaction to a debate about germs or getting called an idiot. Anyway, from what you have described, I now believe it's possible that my elbow accidentally connected with your face, either when I grabbed for your wrists or when I spun you around. I am very sorry about that.

3. Healthy conflict resolution: We have talked about this before. It's perfectly reasonable that two people will sometimes disagree about things. That's okay, and it's great to talk about those differences in an attempt to reconcile those differences and come to agreement or compromise. But the process shouldn't be mean and nasty. No insults. No nasty tone of voice. No personal attacks. Stay focused on the subject, and look for points of agreement to build upon. The point is to persuade the other person, not to shame or insult them. It's also okay to end an argument without an obvious winner. This isn't Thunderdome.

Also, I am sickened by your suggestion that I take out my aggression on my cat. Like you, I believe that Archie suffered some of kind of traumatic abuse before I adopted him. The idea of deliberately hurting either you or Archie turns my stomach.

[VincenzoG91]

My other email to her:

Thinking back on some things said the other night, I am troubled by something that has come up repeatedly. It seems very important to you to prove that I am sometimes wrong. So let's talk about that.

Sometimes I am wrong.

There. I said it, and I meant it. Sometimes I am wrong. Now you can relax about it.

Remember, we met through a website that we both joined after taking an IQ test. And according to that website, we both scored in the same five-point rage of IQ. If one of us scored a little higher than the other, the difference is insignificant and we're still both very intelligent people. That should be a relief for both of us. We're equally smart people, and we don't need to compete or prove anything to each other. As far as I'm concerned, trying to prove that I am smarter than you would be like trying to prove that I earned some money by moving a dollar from my wallet to my pocket. I'm smart and you're smart, and even if we disagree about something, we're still both smart.

I understand that it bothers you sometimes that I always have an answer for every question. You're forgetting that sometimes my answer is "I don't know." And as a member of the senior management team at work, I am frequently called upon to give an expert opinion regarding accounting or general business matters. It's important I give confident and useful answers when I can, because that is part of my job. It is unnecessary and actually undesirable to try to break me down into a more insecure and indecisive person. It might give your self-esteem a short-term boost, but then you would eventually lose respect for me. I respect you for being intelligent, so try to accept me for the intelligent and confident person that I am. You don't need to accept my answers as gospel, because sometimes I am wrong, and it's good to examine other viewpoints.

I was raised this way. My parents were both smart people, and they were equal partners in every aspect of life, especially the family business. They didn't agree about everything, but they always respected each other as intelligent. That's the example they set, so I grew up hoping to some day marry an intelligent woman, so we could be equal partners in life too. I truly believe that you are the intelligent woman of my dreams.

[VincenzoG91]

Her response:

First off, if you think bullshitting your way out of this is gonna make things better, your wrong. You need to call and apologize instead of displacing your way out of this as some misunderstanding. I understand exactly what you did and do not respect you for it.

Second, if you think you acted calmly, you need to check yourself into a mental facility. Now. I can call one on your behalf because clearly, you're right Police should get involved.

Third, there was no "guiding" me to the door. You are losing your mind. How gentlely do you think your hands on me possibly were? You're not fooling anyone if you claim it was anything less than overtly aggressive. You were too afraid to put your hands on the wine bottle for fear of transmission of germs but not too afraid to out your hands on my shoulders when you didn't like what I had to say? You knew exactly what you were doing. You had NO ****ING RIGHT TO PUT YOUR HANDS ON ME! Period. Try doing it to your supervisor next time he comes into your office with info financials that pisses you off and implies your not doing enough so you start yelling at him despite his logical statements and "guide" him towards the door. Putting your hands on me after you've already been hostile can be perceived as no other way.

Fourth, there was no logical persuasive discussion going on either. I asked which cups you had recently washed. YOU, not me, made a deal out of it. I said I didn't care about any other cups, just the ones you recently used & washed, over and over again. You kept saying "according to my line of reasoning" whenever I would reference FACTS that were influencing why I asked. Google Rush Limbough. If you are presented with facts and refuse to acknowledge them and then start making correlations that you pull out of your ass like every cup in your house not being usable, then, perhaps, what does that make you? An idiot? Look at how you handled yourself in this context. What show of intelligence did you display? You got emotional over cups and dishsoap. You yelled and threatened to throw your dishsoap away, holding it over the trash can. What kind of weirdo does that??? I don't care if you throw your dishsoap away! How should I have perceived you? You are a sore 'fact based' loser and always have been. This altercation just highlights it. This happens all too regularly with you because you think your the only one out of the two of us that knows anything. God complex? You get insecure about everything. Everything! You could have answered the ****ing cup question and moved on but no, you had to keep pressing why my rational was flawed and your way of doing things was right and look where that lead to. Threatening to get the police involved because I called you an idiot makes you more than that. People will argue. People will get upset. You do not need to resort to hostile intimidation tactics because you do not like what someone said. I see you as someone incapable of picking and choosing their battles and letting people have different opinions. You shouldn't care if I think you don't wash your dishes good enough. I don't live with you and I don't normally care how you wash your dishes. I just cared about not using a cup you had recently used since I know your dishwashing habits. If you had let that roll off your shoulder, there would have been no discussion and altercation. Do you enjoy pushing and belittling me until I prove in a snotty ass tone how right and utterly wrong you are? How smart does that make you? You push and push until I snap and defend back. This happens all too frequently and I hate it. Your not as infallible as you think so quit acting like you know everything. It makes you look stupid. I don't know what the psychology behind you is but if deep down you really feel that way about yourself than you've made a mockery of your parents and the entire educational institution because you have a college degree, you have a job, but lack self-worth if you're world comes crumbling apart because someone introduces you to facts that YOU impose for them to present that highlight how little you know.

I too would be disturbed about imagery over beating a cat. You should feel the same disturbance over beating a girl. You punched me and it lead to a fat lip and bleeding from my piercing. You did that. You could have prevented that by never having laid your hands on me and moving me against my will. You could have prevented the whole thing but somehow you see this as a learning experience for the both of us.

I hope you learned that I actually know a thing or two and to listen and accept my knowledge and experience with the same grace and humility I afford you.. On my end I learned that unless YOU get some professional counseling or start doing some personal work on your self-esteem or whatever other emotional issue is causing you to lash out whenever I have a fact based opinion that you don't like, that situations like this will happen again in the future. Next time perhaps resulting with me having a busted nose.

[VincenzoG91]

She has some good points.

Guiding her to the door was a terrible idea. But she lives in an apartment and I own my house. That doesn't make me better than her, but I am allowed to decide that a hostile guest in my home needs to leave. Also, I did get offended during the germ discussion, because my girlfriend suddenly decided that none of my handwashed dishes were safe and insisted that I locate a previously handwashed glass for her to drink from. I found that to be an insulting suggestion, and it was delivered in a rude manner. If I had been on my toes, I could have laughed and suggested that she just drink from the bottle. Yes, at one point in the discussion, I took my dishsoap container and held it over the waste basket and asked if she wanted me to throw it away because it wasn't good enough. I regret that I spent more than two minutes on that debate, because nothing good came from the conversation.

She is wrong about two crucial points.

I am not a bullshitter. And I didn't punch her. Or in any other way deliberately strike her. I'm not saying this so that a bunch of strangers on the internet will think about me in a favorable way. I'm saying this because I didn't intentionally hit her. That said, it disgusts me to think that I may have accidentally injured her. I never wanted her to get hurt, I just wanted her to go home.

Realistically, it looks like I need to take Indie's advice. Patch things up for now, and plan to break up in late February.

[vashti]

Vincenzo, I don't see how you can reconcile this with each of you holding to such vastly different versions of the same story. I think before another such incident happens, you should think about cutting your losses. Unfortunately, even if your version is entirely correct, I don't think a cop will take your word over that of a hysterical woman, particularly one that is bleeding.

I want to stress that I am with you on this one, but i don't think in the end, it matters.

[VincenzoG91]

I'm just torn on how to deal with this in the short-term. My natural instinct for handling a mis-communication is to communicate directly and immediately until everything is cleared up. In the course of this relationship, I have learned that it's often better to take a couple of days to let things cool down before talking. But in this situation, I was worried that she would become stuck on the idea that I punched her unless we cleared things up quickly. Now it appears too late, and she will always think of me as the guy who punched her. But as Indie said, if I break up with her right now, there is a risk that she will get the police involved.

This is going to sound ridiculous, but what if I offered to pay for mediation? A neutral attorney who is trained in mediation could meet with us individually and then together, and hopefully guide us to a mutual understanding. It shouldn't take more than 2 or 3 hours, and could avoid a more drastic outcome.

[vashti]

I think if she missed her opportunity to get cops involved. If she were going to do that, it seems like she would have done that when her emotions were higher. After, I think after this long together, this will not be the way she thinks of you after the dust settles. There is too much good history for that.

Have you SEEN her since the incident? A fat lip usually heals pretty quickly. I would wait to cut contact formally until there are no physical signs of your altercation, just in case she becomes vindictive.

[HeartIsAching]

I think if she missed her opportunity to get cops involved. If she were going to do that, it seems like she would have done that when her emotions were higher. After, I think after this long together, this will not be the way she thinks of you after the dust settles. There is too much good history for that.

Have you SEEN her since the incident? A fat lip usually heals pretty quickly. I would wait to cut contact formally until there are no physical signs of your altercation, just in case she becomes vindictive.

She has NOT missed her opportunity. If she can validate time and date (photographs of her injuries or a doctor visit) and it's within the statute of limitations, she can call the cops and have him arrested. Even if he's done the same, he'll have a VERY hard time getting anything done about her.

I can't stress this enough - Vincenzo, you need to cut ties with her. If she's at all vindictive, this will not end well for you.