will men really commit after marriage?

[vashti]

You say that there is an ocean of difference between the two Vash, but in practical terms I'm not seeing it.

You will never catch a married person telling you that an unmarried relationship is the same thing as marriage. You are obviously more vested when you agree to marry someone, and you have legal rights as a spouse. If you choose not to see that, what more can be said?

I suggest you look into the practical reasons homosexual couples would like the right to marry. Obviously, they see a difference between long term relationships and marriage, and it is NOT all about "well, the straight people get to do it".

[Mish]

You will never catch a married person telling you that an unmarried relationship is the same thing as marriage. You are obviously more vested when you agree to marry someone, and you have legal rights as a spouse. If you choose not to see that, what more can be said?

Well, thats the thing I don't understand Vash. How is a person more vested in a relationship just because they are married? What changes? All the flaws remain. The chemistry is the same. Everything else in the people's life is no different. They made a promise on paper to love each other forever, similar to verbal promises lovers make in their first 6 months of the relationship. Yeh, maybe that promise is a little bit more recognised by others. But what is the real difference that makes marriage stand out? Say, if marriage was a product, what is it's strongest selling point?

I suggest you look into the practical reasons homosexual couples would like the right to marry. Obviously, they see a difference between long term relationships and marriage, and it is NOT all about "well, the straight people get to do it".

I was of the opinion that homosexual couples want equal rights to be formaly recognised as a couple. They get a lot of flack and are still descriminated against by others on the grounds that they are not a "real" couple with a "real" relationship. Being married is a clear message to others that their relationship is as real as anyone elses. I think there is a difference in perception on this subject matter when it comes to this minority. They are not really getting more commitment or more intent our of it.

[IndiReloaded]

Well, sure there is an intent in marriage to stay for life in marriage. There is an intent to stay for life in many LTRs as well.

Its easier to walk away from an LTR Mish. I've been in both. Take even yourself. You were with your ex a long time, yes? A few years? Think about it this way: if you were married to her, would you have let the relationship go so quickly? I'm almost certain not, so then, you answer: Why not?

People exchange vows on their day of wedding, but these vows are worth as much as any vow outside of marriage. They can't be enforced and just like in LTR subject to change with the winds of change.

There's a structure to the marriage vows, societally imposed yes, but still a structure to the whole construction that makes it more difficult to dissolve the relationship. Both mentally & practically (you don't need a lawyer to break up).

There was a time, a long while back when those vows actually stood for something and meant something. There was a time when people simply didn't have the power to go back on their words after those words were uttered.

Its still true today, Mish. Any vow only ever means whatever weight you decide to give it, I said this in my last post. How do you decide something is important? Noone is saying you CAN'T take vows made in a non-marriage setting seriously, just that generally its difficult. And anyone who would do so would likely also be fine w/getting married in the traditional sense.

[Mish]

Its easier to walk away from an LTR Mish. I've been in both. Take even yourself. You were with your ex a long time, yes? A few years? Think about it this way: if you were married to her, would you have let the relationship go so quickly? I'm almost certain not, so then, you answer: Why not?

I didn't have a lot of choice in the matter. She made the decision without any consideration of how I felt about it. She did it a few times before as well, but I was able to talk her out of it. Not this time. If we were married, maybe I could talk her out a few times more again, but the chemistry for downfall was there and I realize due to this our relationship was pretty much sealed. The real downfall was her unreadiness for a serious relationship, not the lack of marriage.

There's a structure to the marriage vows, societally imposed yes, but still a structure to the whole construction that makes it more difficult to dissolve the relationship. Both mentally & practically (you don't need a lawyer to break up).

True, it takes a little bit longer to break up than in LTR, but once the process starts it rarely really stops. There are no formal structures to keep the relationship in place. Actually in our culture we move towards seperation and liberation than keeping a couple together. "What?? You mean he/she is not perfect?? You better find yourself something better!". There's nothing in our culture that really enforces that if two people have problems they should stay together be they married or otherwise.

Its still true today, Mish. Any vow only ever means whatever weight you decide to give it, I said this in my last post. How do you decide something is important? Noone is saying you CAN'T take vows made in a non-marriage setting seriously, just that generally its difficult. And anyone who would do so would likely also be fine w/getting married in the traditional sense.

Well, personally I have no real qualms with getting married in the traditional sense. And I would exchange vows if I had any form of certainty that those vows would be honoured. I do have a problem with the specter of divorce though. It's shinning brightly and I would never want to go through it. If I had a choice I would rather have a break up instead of divorce stigma against my name.

[vashti]

I was of the opinion that homosexual couples want equal rights to be formaly recognised as a couple. They get a lot of flack and are still descriminated against by others on the grounds that they are not a "real" couple with a "real" relationship. Being married is a clear message to others that their relationship is as real as anyone elses. I think there is a difference in perception on this subject matter when it comes to this minority. They are not really getting more commitment or more intent our of it.

That is only part of it. Being married means you have legal rights as the next of kin. That is not the case for long term relationships. Your momma has more rights than your long term partner does.

[Mish]

That is only part of it. Being married means you have legal rights as the next of kin. That is not the case for long term relationships. Your momma has more rights than your long term partner does.

You don't need to be married to nominate your next of kin. There's is a whole range of other documents that can filled out for that (Including partnership agreements). Ofcourse it depends what the purpose is for the next of kin is as well? Is it just about where will the money go if the partner dies? Then that can be safely taken care of by a Will.

[vashti]

You don't need to be married to nominate your next of kin. There's is a whole range of other documents that can filled out for that (Including partnership agreements).

Hmm... not here, you can't. And no, it's not just about money. It's about health care decisions, and even being allowed information about an incapacitated loved one's condition.

[IndiReloaded]

Actually in our culture we move towards seperation and liberation than keeping a couple together. "What?? You mean he/she is not perfect?? You better find yourself something better!".

Mish, I am always impressed at what a thoughtful young man you are. This is a very incisive point you make. Since I believe that society is the totality of the views of individuals, I would suggest that this point be something you seek agreement with a future partner about. They have to believe it the same way you do & all will be well whether you decide on marriage or some other variant.

Another recent thread here was also touching upon intolerance but in a different context. Your point reminds us that it all starts with individual attitude.

[Mish]

Mish, I am always impressed at what a thoughtful young man you are. This is a very incisive point you make. Since I believe that society is the totality of the views of individuals, I would suggest that this point be something you seek agreement with a future partner about. They have to believe it the same way you do & all will be well whether you decide on marriage or some other variant.

Another recent thread here was also touching upon intolerance but in a different context. Your point reminds us that it all starts with individual attitude.

Thanks Indi, your understanding is really appreciated

To reveal a little bit of personal judgement on the issue.

Personally, I believe in marriage and yes when I find the right partner I will probably seek it if for nothing more than to be the legal guardian of my children. But I realize I am not perfect, I have a lot of flaws many of which will probably be grounds for break up. In my lifetime I won't be able to fix them all. Does this mean I am an obvious candidate for a future divorce?

At any other point in time this rationalization would sound defeatist, but today it's called being "realistic". This is why I am feeling disillusioned with the idea of marriage. As a product, it doesn't provide me with what I want. Hence (taking into consideration experience of those around me) I sometimes doubt if it's really relevant at all.

[IndiReloaded]

But I realize I am not perfect, I have a lot of flaws many of which will probably be grounds for break up. In my lifetime I won't be able to fix them all. Does this mean I am an obvious candidate for a future divorce?

Hmm, I think divorce is really a desperate escape mechanism when all else fails & your mental/emotion survival depends on getting away from the other person. You don't seem to be lacking in either self-awareness or creative problem solving ability, so I'd have to say divorce would only happen for you if a) you decide the above or b) you choose your partner unwisely.

That said, there's no guarantees for anything (duh). If you go into marriage w/even the slightest fear of divorce, I'd avoid it until you have dealt w/whatever issue you've got.

At any other point in time this rationalization would sound defeatist, but today it's called being "realistic".

No, its not realistic at all. Realistic means 'reasonable expectations'. Marriage expectations today are the complete opposite, IMO. Troubled couples I've seen expect soooo much from their partners that's its no suprise relationships break under the strain. Who the hell wants to be the 'be all/end all' for any other individual? There are umpteen books & articles about the lack of family/emotional support for young couples nowadays.

Want to know my predictor of a 'good' marriage? Its the ones where the partners are fond of each other, support each other, and are comfortable with each having interests and friends outside the marriage. Its healthy. The married couples I've known who don't show these traits have inevitably run into problems (which can be fixed, but it takes work).

[Mish]

Hmm, I think divorce is really a desperate escape mechanism when all else fails & your mental/emotion survival depends on getting away from the other person. You don't seem to be lacking in either self-awareness or creative problem solving ability, so I'd have to say divorce would only happen for you if a) you decide the above or b) you choose your partner unwisely.

That said, there's no guarantees for anything (duh). If you go into marriage w/even the slightest fear of divorce, I'd avoid it until you have dealt w/whatever issue you've got.

So far, I have arrived at the exact same conclusion.

My fear of divorce though is general and not partner specific. If I was with a partner worthy of my unconditional trust, perhaps this fear will subside in the future.

No, its not realistic at all. Realistic means 'reasonable expectations'.

So far I have a 'reasonable expectation' that due to me having flaws a relationship I start will not be permanent. There is no room for flaws in a culture where majority of relationships are based on unreasonable expectations of perfection, which are considered normal. How it turns out in the future and if there will come a circumstance that will challenge and defeat this perception remains to be seen. Perhaps when the time is right my perspective will change.

Marriage expectations today are the complete opposite, IMO. Troubled couples I've seen expect soooo much from their partners that's its no suprise relationships break under the strain. Who the hell wants to be the 'be all/end all' for any other individual? There are umpteen books & articles about the lack of family/emotional support for young couples nowadays.

Want to know my predictor of a 'good' marriage? Its the ones where the partners are fond of each other, support each other, and are comfortable with each having interests and friends outside the marriage. Its healthy. The married couples I've known who don't show these traits have inevitably run into problems (which can be fixed, but it takes work).

I agree with you predictor for good marriage Indi. I find people of that caliber are rare or at least exist outside my age group (people who arrived at the same conclusion maybe after the long sequence of trial and error).

[Henry123]

.....so I'd have to say divorce would only happen for you if a) you decide the above or b) you choose your partner unwisely.

But dont people change overtime regardless?

[IndiReloaded]

But dont people change overtime regardless?

Sure they do. But not sure how you mean this to relate to divorce. A good partnership encourages growth and change of each other. Its called growing up.

One does run into problems when one grows ahead of the other. But I think that is one of the things you're supposed to help each other with. The important factor is that both are open to growth. When one stops or refuses, this can cause serious problems if the issue isn't one that can be ignored or tolerated by the other partner. This is why its best to try and find as close a fit as you can regarding attitudes about major life issues (kids, money, goals, morals, etc) early on.

FWIW

And to the OP, based on the replies in this thread, I would have to say men are just as interested in commitment as women.

[Junket]

And to the OP, based on the replies in this thread, I would have to say men are just as interested in commitment as women.

And just to reiterate, this doesn't mean buying a house, working a job to fill that house with stuff, and fúcking your wife fat so she spits out babies whom you have to buy more stuff for, for the next 18+ years.

If that's all a person sees marriage as, that's all marriage will ever be.

[Henry123]

Sure they do. But not sure how you mean this to relate to divorce.

If the person you married is not the same person anymore then why stay married? Why even bother with marriage? Is it really any different than starting a new relationship with someone else?
Why not start new relationships with others?

... A good partnership encourages growth and change of each other. Its called growing up.

I sense there will be conflict between men and women on what is to be changed and under whose terms? I also sense there will be conflict between men and women on what is to be consider "growing up" to be?

...
One does run into problems when one grows ahead of the other.

(relating to the post above)
I could fortell conflict between men and women on whose defining what "growth" constitute as.
I had a friend who was in a deep relationship that this conflict kept on recuring between he and his now ex girl friend. It was never resolved. Both were for 'growth' and 'change' but both were reluctant to compromised. Both accused one another of being unreasonible.

... This is why its best to try and find as close a fit as you can regarding attitudes about major life issues (kids, money, goals, morals, etc) early on.

It cetainly makes sense to me that one should find someone whose beliefs, morals etc. are similar. If people change I would be concern that their views on goals, morals etc. would also change.

The more I hear about marriage and life the more I feel pessimistic about it.