Vent: Crappy Monday

[Junsui]

Oh I never said I was without luxuries lol. I just know there are some people in the US that are.

[Mish]

The interetsing thing about this thread is that everyone is discussing the topic through the luxury of an internet connection. Imagine all the oil-related commodities it takes for each of us to enjoy that privilege, we in the West, already are beginning to consider is a utility, just like electricity; which was also, once, a luxury entirely and still is to most in the world. Considerable cultural arrogance is afoot in that. What's the latest number? The US consumes 25% of the world's energy resources? Something like that?

Hayward, you captured my point with an excellent exactness! While other posters think that I was reffering to luxury such as money, you understand that luxury comes in many forms, shapes and sizes, just like electricity, plumbing, food and water... All things that all of us in the Western world take for granted to such an extent that to us they are not luxuries anymore but NEEDS... While others see them as luxuries that can be rationed and maintained.

Coming back to my original point of people from developing/3 Rd World having better adopatation skills than many US citizents, especially when it comes to enjoying the quality of life and family sustainabillity even on minimum wage, this point still stands!

[vashti]

I think that plumbing, food and water ARE needs because they are all important for health reasons. Unfortunately, those needs are unmet for many people around the world. That people are forced to ration these things doesn't make them any less necessary.

EDIT: I guess I see that people not having these things is the problem, rather than some of us having them. Does that make sense? Everyone should have them.

[Junsui]

I didn't think you were refering to just money.

[Mish]

I think that plumbing, food and water ARE needs because they are all important for health reasons. Unfortunately, those needs are unmet for many people around the world. That people are forced to ration these things doesn't make them any less necessary.

EDIT: I guess I see that people not having these things is the problem, rather than some of us having them. Does that make sense? Everyone should have them.

Tanya, plumbing is not a need. People have survived without plumbing for milleniums without any problems.

Food, water and shelter ARE needs, but an average US citizen over consumes these compared to people in developing/3 rd world and has less capacity and skill at rationing their food/water supplies as well as choosing a shelter 100 time more adequate to survival. As mentioned earlier, a healthy diet of vegetables, cereals, garnish and minimum intake of meat can be maintained at $20 per week... This diet if managed properly can be A LOT healthier than excessive amount of oils, fat, salt and sugar that an average US citizen consumes per day (Anyone heard of the obessity epidemic in the western countries).

I agree, evryone should have these things, but unfortunately the way the world is run we will never see this happen...

[vashti]

Tanya, plumbing is not a need. People have survived without plumbing for milleniums without any problems....

Ever heard of cholera? Untreated, it kills 50% of the people who contract it, and that is merely one of many diseases that are spread through poor sanitation.

[url]http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/diseases/cholera/en/[/url]

About the rest, we've already established that I agree in general with you. I'm just not willing to make villians out of Westerners simply because we were fortunate enough to be born in the West, nor am I willing to elevate those who lack our good fortune. The problem lies not in American consumption, but in inadequate distribution due to corruption of third world governments.

But don't worry, I still love ya!

[Mish]

Ever heard of cholera? Untreated, it kills 50% of the people who contract it, and that is merely one of many diseases that are spread through poor sanitation.

[url]http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/diseases/cholera/en/[/url]

About the rest, we've already established that I agree in general with you. I'm just not willing to make villians out of Westerners simply because we were fortunate enough to be born in the West, nor am I willing to elevate those who lack our good fortune. The problem lies not in American consumption, but in inadequate distribution due to corruption of third world governments.

But don't worry, I still love ya!

I agree cholera is a big problem. But consider that out of thousands of years that human beings roamed the earth, plumbing is still a very recent invention and is still a luxury when we compare western countries to developing and 3rd World.

I am not trying to villianize the westerners. My original argument was that people from developing/3rd world countries have better adoptation skills because of their harsher environment and that many things we take for granted are considered a luxury for these people and therefore even our minimum wage is a dream environment for them.

I agree that inadequate distribution causes many problems in develping coutnries and third world and in many cases corrupt governments are to blame. But I would also like you to investigate who supports these corrupt governments and how some of these corrupt governments come to power. Like, who supported Sadam Hussein with weaponry and credits in the 80s, who trained Al Queda, who organized coups in South America to bring dictators to power, whose corprations assumed 100% control of water supplies in Bolivia and taxed people for even collecting rain water, who is supporting corrupt regimes in Central Asia, whose corporations support millitarised and oprresives regimes around the world, whoose financial institutions are sucking the life out of developing countries and 3rd world with interest on loans that can never be repaid etc...

You know better than to take arguments personally. Ofcourse I love you too

[Junsui]

When you say it's a very recent invention, when was it invented? I'm just curious.

[Mish]

Plumbing at first was inveted for public baths as a means of carrying fresh water to a bath used by the rich in the ancient times (I think the first inventors were the Romans).

It would take many centuries to make and revolutionaze the plumbing system into what it is today (In the Western World).

Maybe it should be broken down into seperate facillities such as:

Edwin Ruud was the inventor of the automatic-storage water heater in 1889.

The first flush toilet was invented in 1775 by Alexander Cummings, Patented two years later by Samuel Prosser (Although the very first toilet was built for Queen Elizabeth as early as 1596)

The modern drinking fountain was invented and then manufactured in the early 1900s by two men and the respective company each man founded; inventor, Halsey Willard Taylor and the Halsey Taylor Company and inventor, Luther Haws

We might owe the 1857 invention of toilet-paper to American, Joseph Coyetty.

"In this country, the first waterworks was installed in Philadelphia in 1802 and by 1860 136 cities were enjoying piped water systems. By 1880, the number was up to 598. With piped water, per-capita water use increased at least 10-fold, from 3-5 gallons per person per day to 30-50 gallons per person per day or even more."

You can find more here [url]http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.co%2Dintelligence.org/y2k%5Fsewers.html%23Rachel[/url]

And even more here

[url]http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blplumbing.htm[/url]

[vashti]

Mishayna, it will be very hard for some poor girl to marry you, as you seem to enjoy arguing even more than me! I actually typed out a lengthy response to your last two posts and then deleted it as I see this is a pointless argument.

People are resourceful out of necessity, and if/when it becomes necessary, Westerners will be able to adapt, just as they did during the great depression. If you try to tell me that those people weren't really poor becasue they could eat grass, I will climb through the computer screen and smack you on the head.

Just as bluevette will not be able to convince me that the government is as good as he'd like to believe, you will not be able to convince me that it is as bad as it seems you'd like to believe. Governments work to elevate the interests of their own people above those of other countries. That is their job. Has the American government made mistakes? Of course. All governments do. Even yours.

[Junsui]

I was watching the History channel the other day and they were showing Roman Vices. It was a good show. The Romans are so interesting to me. Some of the stuff they built was just so amazing. Thank you for the information, Mish!

[Mish]

I was watching the History channel the other day and they were showing Roman Vices. It was a good show. The Romans are so interesting to me. Some of the stuff they built was just so amazing. Thank you for the information, Mish!

I'm glad it was useful to you

[Rosebud]

I know what your talking about Junsui I really get into greek mythology. For some reason in high school I picked up on real fast and amazingly I still remember quite a bit!

[Mish]

Mishayna, it will be very hard for some poor girl to marry you, as you seem to enjoy arguing even more than me! I actually typed out a lengthy response to your last two posts and then deleted it as I see this is a pointless argument.

Once again I am flattered by your concern, but I wouldn't worry about a girl not wanting to marry me I've had too many opportunities for that already. It's interesting though how you are attempting to subtley personalize the argument (Just like Hayward tries to personalize it when arguing with you - there are some interesting parallels)

People are resourceful out of necessity, and if/when it becomes necessary, Westerners will be able to adapt, just as they did during the great depression. If you try to tell me that those people weren't really poor becasue they could eat grass, I will climb through the computer screen and smack you on the head.

We are not talking about if/when it becomes necessary, we are talking about right now. Back to my original point of people from developing/3 rd world countries being more adoptable to wesrtenized environemnt and can live on a US minimum wage better than average westerner. I don't understand, why do you keep on confusing the point I am trying to make? I'm not talking about the past, the history or the great depression, I am talking about the present and adoptabillity skils in the NOW

Just as bluevette will not be able to convince me that the government is as good as he'd like to believe, you will not be able to convince me that it is as bad as it seems you'd like to believe. Governments work to elevate the interests of their own people above those of other countries. That is their job. Has the American government made mistakes? Of course. All governments do. Even yours.

Tanya, I am not trying to convince you that it's bad in US, I am saying exactly the opposite. That it's so good in US that people from developing and 3rd world countries could live and sustain families on US minimum wage without a lot of problems. Why do you keep on distorting what I am trying to say? Is it just for the sake of winning?

In regards of US government, yes maybe its their job to police the world and keep the poor countries poor, I don't know that and I won't argue with that. I agree, my government has made A LOT of mistakes too...

[vashti]

Once again I am flattered by your concern, but I wouldn't worry about a girl not wanting to marry me

Bah! That's not what I meant (although I suppose I can see why you interpreted it that way). I only meant that she will have to be very good at arguing.

Over the course of our debate, I was under the impression that the themes were more fluid than you obviously thought. Because I was apparently mistaken, I will not address your post bit by bit. But I do wish to clarify that I never said that the job of US government is to "keep other countries poor", and hey, while I don't agree with all you've said or implied, I don't mind letting you "win" (your word).