Strange sex talk -- preparing to go to counseling on Monday

[lahnnabell]

I've been in plenty of long-term relationships and one of the several reasons things have not worked out between me and my exes are our views on sex and our sexual relationship. The actual act of sex never suffered though and it was always fun because I enjoy being with my partner in that way. It's not simply about getting off.

As far as I'm concerned, if I am in a relationship for the long haul, then I am immersed in it. Maintaining a relationship is full-time work and you don't get sick days. There are off days, sure, but it's important for the health of the relationship and the two people involved that both parties remain invested. Sadly, one or both parties tends to quit early, and a lot of those people fail to own up to their issues proactively. A lot of people wait it out until the frustration and resentment have already set in. The sex becomes bad or lackluster, you fight about stupid things, have numerous conversations about "fixing things" to no avail. Those are all signs of deeper issues with those individual people. And instead of talking about it, each person is afraid that the other will just call the whole thing off. So things go stale and remain stagnant and those people become miserable humans because of it. They stay together out of fear and to avoid being lonely.

Sex doesn't have to become formulaic. It doesn't have to become a transaction where one person gets to have an orgasm because they took out the trash that day. For me, when I have sex it is about sharing the bond I have with my partner and it is about making them happy. Sure, I'd love to have an orgasm every time, but it doesn't always happen like that, and that's okay. I want my guy to want me because of who I am, not what I can do for him.

[Junket]

Sex doesn't have to become formulaic. It doesn't have to become a transaction where one person gets to have an orgasm because they took out the trash that day. For me, when I have sex it is about sharing the bond I have with my partner and it is about making them happy. Sure, I'd love to have an orgasm every time, but it doesn't always happen like that, and that's okay. I want my guy to want me because of who I am, not what I can do for him.

Careful, I said "everything" can be broken down into a formula, not just sex. I'm sure there are things you know you can do to get a certain reaction out of your partner, and him likewise.

I could expand on this, but the coffee is ready, my buddy is on-line waiting for me to play.

[lahnnabell]

So, you are stating that after a while of dating, one tends to have to resort to manipulating one's partner into doing something they want? How about having a partner that simply doesn't mind doing something for you? Manipulation is passive-aggressive and I am not that sort of person.

If you have to resort to manipulation and passive-aggressive tactics to produce a result in your partner that you wouldn't otherwise see, there are problems that are not being addressed. You say it applies to everything. I'm going to use the example of my ex who never helped me take care of our apartment last year which created strain which lead to our break-up (amongst other reasons). We had numerous conversations about how to share the work. I suppose I could have been spiteful and refused to clean the dishes myself or resorted to some other tactic until he decided to do it. However, this is not the type of relationship that I want. Maybe I'm an idealist, but I sincerely believe that I deserve a man who will take responsibility for himself and his actions and not rely on me to train him into being who I want him to be. That is not my job, nor do I want that job.

To me, a fulfilling relationship involves two people that are there by choice, not because they need something or someone. Not because of the regular sex. They choose to be together because they found something in another person that they want to have in their life. For my boyfriend, he wants that positive, idealist in me to become a part of him. He loves my kindness and my optimism. For me, I love having his calm, gentle soul at my side because it strengthens my optimism. His realism mixes well with my own idealist nature.

I saw somewhere else where you posted about some point system that men and women use? I've never even heard of such a thing, and it makes relationships sound like numbers game instead of a loving exchange between two humans.

[vashti]

lahnna - how many long term relationships have you had, and what was the longest?

[IndiReloaded]

Wow, amidst the noise there are some fundamental points in there. Here is what stands out to me:

Okay,


--

ME: I'm still deeply hurt over what you did with that guy two weeks ago. I don't feel like I trust you anymore.

GIRLFRIEND: Still? I thought things were better. You've been acting so normal around me, how could you expect me not to think you've moved on from this. [this after she basically demanded that I act normal until therapy]

--

ME: I don't think my sexual needs are unreasonable. All I ask is that I be able to initiate sex on occasion, and that we have it more frequently.

GIRLFRIEND: Has it ever occurred to you that this might just be a male/female thing? Men think about sex more than women. There's a reason why "I have a headache" is the stereotype that it is, men have been hearing this from their partners since the dawn of time. No man in a long term relationship can expect to get all the sex he wants. Sex slows down for everyone in time. How can you fault me for feeling the same way that MOST off the other people in the world feel MOST of the time? [For the record, I have never asked her for a buffet. I just want to not feel like I'm living in a nunnery for between 29 and 31 days out of every 31 days.]

ME: I don't think that our sexual frequency is remotely comparable to most of our peers in a similar situation to ours.

GIRLFRIEND: Why are you making this about everyone else? This should be about us. And it's like sex is the only thing that matters to you in this relationship. Don't I mean more to you than that? You act like it's the most important thing. Everything else is great, that should be enough.

ME: Your inability to address this after months of effort on my part and huge adjustments that I have made had made this more than a sex problem for me. It's a relationship problem.

GIRLFRIEND: It seems like all you care about is the sex now. You didn't used to be like this. What changed?

ME: It's not all I care about. But it's very important to me. It should be important to you, too.

GIRLFRIEND: I have a low sex drive. It's out of my control. Why should I have to be defined as the one with a problem. What adjustments will you make?

ME: I'm not saying the one with the highest sex drive has to set the pace. I'm just asking that we settle into some kind of normal frequency, and that I feel free to express myself to you sexually.

GIRLFRIEND: Normal? What is normal? Every relationship is different. I can't change how I am. Why can't you appreciate the rest of our relationship for what it is?

----


How can I go into this counseling session sounding like a reasonable person? I am so steamed about all of this that I'm worried I am going to sound like a bit of a lunatic even if I try not to. And, of course, there is the whole betrayal issue. What can I possibly say to make her understand that it's up to HER to build trust and make amends somehow, not up to ME to magically forgive her just because two weeks has passed. She strayed. I was the wronged party!

Each of those highlights can be discussed as an individual issue. The main flags for me is her retreat into "that's how it is/that's how I am" without acknowledging your concerns as valid. She gets on the defensive very quickly, probably b/c she feels backed into a corner with her cheating. IMO, that issue is the core one and should be addressed first.

Her sex drive is clearly fine if she was able to make out with a guy in a bar. You are totally right; the issue is now a relationship one, more than just sex.

As for looking like a lunatic, you sound fine to me. Just know your issues in advance, and know what you are wanting as a solution. The rest will be up to her to contribute to the negotiation or not.

Good luck.

[IndiReloaded]

So, you are stating that after a while of dating, one tends to have to resort to manipulating one's partner into doing something they want? How about having a partner that simply doesn't mind doing something for you? Manipulation is passive-aggressive and I am not that sort of person.

If you have to resort to manipulation and passive-aggressive tactics to produce a result in your partner that you wouldn't otherwise see, there are problems that are not being addressed. You say it applies to everything. I'm going to use the example of my ex who never helped me take care of our apartment last year which created strain which lead to our break-up (amongst other reasons). We had numerous conversations about how to share the work. I suppose I could have been spiteful and refused to clean the dishes myself or resorted to some other tactic until he decided to do it. However, this is not the type of relationship that I want. Maybe I'm an idealist, but I sincerely believe that I deserve a man who will take responsibility for himself and his actions and not rely on me to train him into being who I want him to be. That is not my job, nor do I want that job.

To me, a fulfilling relationship involves two people that are there by choice, not because they need something or someone. Not because of the regular sex. They choose to be together because they found something in another person that they want to have in their life. For my boyfriend, he wants that positive, idealist in me to become a part of him. He loves my kindness and my optimism. For me, I love having his calm, gentle soul at my side because it strengthens my optimism. His realism mixes well with my own idealist nature.

I saw somewhere else where you posted about some point system that men and women use? I've never even heard of such a thing, and it makes relationships sound like numbers game instead of a loving exchange between two humans.

Fras is correct. Your problem, Lahnna, is your negative perception of relationships involving transactions. Its not wrong, nor negative or manipulative. There is nothing wrong with your BF appreciating you giving him a stress-releasing handjob when he gets home from an absolutely atrocious work day. Even tho you really weren't 'feeling it' yourself. You don't both have to be in the mood all the time. Will it make him more likely to then be willing to take out the trash or give the kids a bath? Probably.

All relationships (personal, business, etc) are a kind of bartering process. Its only manipulative or negative when one party is disagreeing or coerced into the transaction.

[lahnnabell]

Okay, wait... I think I see what you're getting at. I had to find an example that fit in my head in order to understand what you were saying. Previously, I mentioned that my ex and I broke up because of our strained living situation. Much of this was due to the fact that we both worked a lot. I had two part-time jobs and filled 14-hour days sometimes while my ex was a first-year teacher. I ended up taking care of the vast majority of the household chores and apartment maintenance. This became really stressful on days I had to work both jobs and I continually asked my ex for help. He always said he would, but would then find last-minute excuses for himself. His work almost always took precedence over our relationship.

One night I finally scored some solo downtime and I was quietly working on my resume. He flat out asked me for a blow job. I got very irritated at first, but instead of getting mad, I quickly cooled myself down and told him that I wasn't in the mood to just drop what I was doing. Perhaps if he'd been a bit more giving on his end initially, I would have obliged his request automatically. Is this what you're talking about?

To answer vash's question, I've been in 4 long term relationships. The longest was 4 years on and off. I was 16 when we began dating and 20 when we broke up. My current relationship is going on 9 months.

[Charlie Boy II]

Well, the disagreement part was sort of what I was getting at. If I don't feel like giving a handjob, I won't. I'd rather say "No" than be halfheartedly involved in something

Handjobs suck anyway.

[Junket]

Handjobs suck anyway.

I used to think the same thing, and there was a time when it was true, until she learned how to give a good one.

I love the internet.

[LailaK]

Everyone is different and everyone's relationships are different.

Stop forcing your realities on Lahnna. Just because you are disillusioned and jaded doesn't mean everybody else has to be or will be.

I would prefer to be idealistic and doing things for my partner out of love as opposed to trading sex for favors.

[Junket]

Everyone is different and everyone's relationships are different.

Stop forcing your realities on Lahnna. Just because you are disillusioned and jaded doesn't mean everybody else has to be or will be.

I would prefer to be idealistic and doing things for my partner out of love as opposed to trading sex for favors.

Like I mentioned, that will last about as long as the honeymoon phase will last.

Don't worry, you'll realize it should your relationship long enough, and you'll think to yourself, "Man, Frasbee was right as usual. What a cunning man is he."

[IndiReloaded]

Everyone is different and everyone's relationships are different.

Stop forcing your realities on Lahnna. Just because you are disillusioned and jaded doesn't mean everybody else has to be or will be.

I would prefer to be idealistic and doing things for my partner out of love as opposed to trading sex for favors.

Noone can force anyone's reality via the internet, Laila. Lahnna's last post demonstrated her to be open-minded and thinking about the concept. Why are you trying to prevent this? Are you threatened by someone actually wanting to improve their understanding of the world?

The fact you don't understand our point is your problem. It should actually prompt you to think more, instead of dig in to your position. Its the sign of a limited mind, Laila. I'm not sure if you were including me in your post, but I am certainly not disillusioned and jaded. Far less than you seem to be, in fact. My life is extremely satisfactory to me.

[IndiReloaded]

One night I finally scored some solo downtime and I was quietly working on my resume. He flat out asked me for a blow job. I got very irritated at first, but instead of getting mad, I quickly cooled myself down and told him that I wasn't in the mood to just drop what I was doing. Perhaps if he'd been a bit more giving on his end initially, I would have obliged his request automatically. Is this what you're talking about?

Yes. Your example is one of a failed transaction, which is fine provided they aren't the majority of your interactions. As you said, if he had been more proactive on his end you would likely have obliged. When you start to find more of such transactions failing, not just about sex but other issues, its often the death-knell of the relationship.

Sometimes, tho, its worth it to give in anyway. Then you could remind him of the things you wanted done and he should be more likely to reciprocate. If he doesn't, that is a red-flag for a selfish personality and again, can be a deal-breaker. Point is, you see its not of the form "okay, you get a BJ *if* you do XXX". He still has a choice to not act even after you've been kind enough to take care of his needs. But a giving person will understand the transaction and you will both benefit. Someone who only takes, tho, (and refuses to improve--sometimes ppl just don't realize it) should be dumped as soon as you can work it out.