Advice needed!

[IndiReloaded]

Well, I think in this instance the talk is about cheating. I.e. messing about with a person who is in a relationship. Imo if someone who is in the relationship starts inappropriate behaviour with another person (from passionate mouth to mouth kissing to having sex) I consider it demonstration of break of commitment and exclusivity to their partner.

If you lack exclusivity, then it follows that there is no commitment. If I drew the venn diagram, the way I think about it, commitment would be a subset of exclusive.

But some of you seem to want to stuff your relationship experiences immediately into that deeper subset. And that is foolish, I think. Once you offer & receive commitment from someone (i.e. you plan for the future, together), you have NOT achieved the Holy Grail. Its merely a building block for the next set of challenges you'll face in this thing called 'relationship'.

So you better make damn sure that whoever you offer commitment to is worth it. Give it away too easy & you reduce its value, IMO. This is why so many couples, including the OP, end up with the problems they do.

I'm with Vash & CB on this. I view any relationship that doesn't have an understanding of permanency, agreed upon by both partners, as uncommitted & therefore you can 'walk away from it' at any point. Sure, ppl will get hurt, but I happen to think honesty about such things is always better than misleading someone and then causing even more hurt down the road.

To the OP: if, by just being her friend, you can destabilize the relationship with her BF to the point they break up, then in my opinion they didn't really belong together anyway. Note that there ARE ways to do this such that you aren't an asshole.

In other words, don't be disrespectful, but don't actively work to support a relationship that isn't all that stable anyway. Let her know your feelings (they aren't wrong) & let her decide what to do about it.

Good luck.

[shh!]

In other words, don't be disrespectful, but don't actively work to support a relationship that isn't all that stable anyway. Let her know your feelings (they aren't wrong) & let her decide what to do about it.

Yeah, that. ^^

[Mish]

If you lack exclusivity, then it follows that there is no commitment. If I drew the venn diagram, the way I think about it, commitment would be a subset of exclusive.

I don't view two people who lack exclusivity as being in a functional relationship. They're either dating or are engaged in a deeply flawed relations that will soon fall apart.

But some of you seem to want to stuff your relationship experiences immediately into that deeper subset. And that is foolish, I think. Once you offer & receive commitment from someone (i.e. you plan for the future, together), you have NOT achieved the Holy Grail. Its merely a building block for the next set of challenges you'll face in this thing called 'relationship'.

I think anyone who makes the conscious choice to go from dating into a relationship is automatically going into that deeper subset of at least the most basic type of commitment (exclusivity). There is no Holy Grail by the way. Relationship is the next set of challenges and marriage is the next set of challenges after that. We never stop experiencing, learning and solving issues and differences.

So you better make damn sure that whoever you offer commitment to is worth it.

That goes without saying

If someone is worthy enough to have a relationship with, it means they are worthy enough to give commitment to. At least from my point of view.

I'm with Vash & CB on this. I view any relationship that doesn't have an understanding of permanency, agreed upon by both partners, as uncommitted & therefore you can 'walk away from it' at any point. Sure, ppl will get hurt, but I happen to think honesty about such things is always better than misleading someone and then causing even more hurt down the road.

Anyone is free to walk away from any relationship at any point in time (be it relationship or marriage with children) if things aren't working out. It's best for everyone involved if that's the case. I think it's important that both parties make a substantial effort to repair their relationship and learn from their mistakes before that occurs. Granted, the effort between fixing a relationship and marriage with children will vary.

To the OP: if, by just being her friend, you can destabilize the relationship with her BF to the point they break up, then in my opinion they didn't really belong together anyway. Note that there ARE ways to do this such that you aren't an asshole.

I strongly disagree with that. Anyone's relationship can be destabilized with enough cunning and effort. If destabilization of two people is made into a project then most people's relationships can end, because most people's relationships aren't perfect and have a whole range of vulnerbilities that can easily be exploited by those with enough skill in the area. Noone's relationship is safe from those with enough skill in relationship demolition. (And there are people skilled in that area) So I don't agree with you when you say that if a relationship can be destabilized then the two people didn't belong together anyway. Because what it means to me is that in this case most people don't belong together.

In other words, don't be disrespectful, but don't actively work to support a relationship that isn't all that stable anyway. Let her know your feelings (they aren't wrong) & let her decide what to do about it.

I would say, don't interfere at all. Let them sort their shit out on their own.

[Cain]

I strongly disagree with that. Anyone's relationship can be destabilized with enough cunning and effort. If destabilization of two people is made into a project then most people's relationships can end, because most people's relationships aren't perfect and have a whole range of vulnerbilities that can easily be exploited by those with enough skill in the area. Noone's relationship is safe from those with enough skill in relationship demolition. (And there are people skilled in that area) So I don't agree with you when you say that if a relationship can be destabilized then the two people didn't belong together anyway. Because what it means to me is that in this case most people don't belong together.

QFMFT!

Indi... Vash... I can guarantee that someone can destroy both of your relationships too. Mish stated it beautifully. Anyone's relationship can be sabotaged. No question. If someone really wants to break two people up, it can happen.

Point is: Don't interfere with two people in a relationship. Karma's a bitch.

[IndiReloaded]

I think we are mostly in agreement, Mish. You DID understand my venn diagram model? I can draw it if not.

And I was actually saying there wasn't a 'holy grail'. Must be my online accent.

You are stating things that are obvious (re: destabilization). I was quite specific in my example: I said that if *just by being friends* the OP can destabilize his friends relationship, then there are certainly problems. I am assuming the OP is not the cunning sort who would deliberately mess up someone's relationship. The sort of ppl who might do such a thing deliberately are rather easy to spot (just look at their relationship history, or lack of).

Anything else?

[shh!]

Indi... Vash... I can guarantee that someone can destroy both of your relationships too.

Actually, no they couldn't (or at least I wouldn't be the weak link). When there are children involved, there is more to consider than simply your own wishes. If my husband can allow this to happen, then he should go.

[Cain]

Actually, no they couldn't. When there are children involved, there is more to consider than simply your own wishes.

So, if her husband happened to start to strongly believe she was cheating with what he would consider proof (though forged proof), he'd stay? It's something we'll never know. Regardless, that won't save it after the kids are gone.

[Cain]

I think we are mostly in agreement, Mish. You DID understand my venn diagram model? I can draw it if not.

And I was actually saying there wasn't a 'holy grail'. Must be my online accent.

You are stating things that are obvious (re: destabilization). I was quite specific in my example: I said that if *just by being friends* the OP can destabilize his friends relationship, then there are certainly problems. I am assuming the OP is not the cunning sort who would deliberately mess up someone's relationship. The sort of ppl who might do such a thing deliberately are rather easy to spot (just look at their relationship history, or lack of).

Anything else?

The problem is that she might enjoy being friends with him and if he confesses feelings for her, they shouldn't stay friends. Her boyfriend might not like her staying friends with someone that has claimed to have feelings for her and I agree with him. The fact that he would be willing to risk the friendship so he can try to break them up is bullshit since she might end up losing a friend.

[IndiReloaded]

If someone really wants to break two people up, it can happen.

I am going to disagree with this. I'm not saying it can't be done, anything is possible, but it is VERY difficult to come between two ppl with good communication & commitment. Particularly if they are aware of how relationships can be made vulnerable & then consciously avoid those things.

There are LOTS of good articles on the web about how to 'affair proof' relationships, and the like. Its all good stuff.

[shh!]

So, if her husband happened to start to strongly believe she was cheating with what he would consider proof (though forged proof), he'd stay? It's something we'll never know. Regardless, that won't save it after the kids are gone.

Who are you referring to (her, him)??

[Cain]

I am going to disagree with this. I'm not saying it can't be done, anything is possible, but it is VERY difficult to come between two ppl with good communication & commitment. Particularly if they are aware of how relationships can be made vulnerable & then consciously avoid those things.

There are LOTS of good articles on the web about how to 'affair proof' relationships, and the like. Its all good stuff.

I'm talking about forging proof. Creating doubt. A highly manipulative person can do it. I'm not saying anyone can. I'm saying someone with the talent of manipulation. My father was one of those people... one of the best. He's a pig asshole. The point is, it can be done. I'm not saying it might not be more difficult with some couples, but it CAN be done.

[Cain]

Who are you referring to (her, him)??

Well, they can be interchangeable. Anyone with kids you're referring to... plug them into that statement.

[shh!]

Well, they can be interchangeable. Anyone with kids you're referring to... plug them into that statement.

You must be paranoid. My husband would believe me if I told him I wasn't cheating because I have a long history of being honest.

[Mish]

I think we are mostly in agreement, Mish. You DID understand my venn diagram model? I can draw it if not.

And I was actually saying there wasn't a 'holy grail'. Must be my online accent.

You are stating things that are obvious (re: destabilization). I was quite specific in my example: I said that if *just by being friends* the OP can destabilize his friends relationship, then there are certainly problems. I am assuming the OP is not the cunning sort who would deliberately mess up someone's relationship. The sort of ppl who might do such a thing deliberately are rather easy to spot (just look at their relationship history, or lack of).

I think we are mostly in agreement then too. Except that, "being just a friend" can mean a lot of things. A proffesional relationship destabilizer can be "just a friend" too and yet easily destabilize the relationship by exploiting relationship's weaknesses, feeding malicious information to both parties, making both play with each other's trust and by exagerration of events. Being just a friend does not take into account a person's motive, in this case OP's motive is to be with the girl and the only way to achieve that is if relationship was to "somehow" fail.

Also, I'm not sure where we are on committment in relationships. I think you have a point of view that a relationship can exist without any form of commitment, where I disagree with that.

Apart from that, I think we agree.

[IndiReloaded]

The problem is that she might enjoy being friends with him and if he confesses feelings for her, they shouldn't stay friends. Her boyfriend might not like her staying friends with someone that has claimed to have feelings for her and I agree with him. The fact that he would be willing to risk the friendship so he can try to break them up is bullshit since she might end up losing a friend.

So you're suggesting the alternative is for him to keep quiet and hope for the day they break up so he can have his turn? Continue in some kind of ersatz friendship with her? Isn't that what you would call 'devious'?

Shall he do that right up to the day she decides to marry this other guy b/c she never realized her friend had feelings for her?

What if she likes him back but simply never thought that a relationship with him was even an option?

He can let her know he has feelings for her w/out spilling his guts if he's skillful. And if she rejects him at that point, then he can honestly decide if he really wants friendship or wants to move on.

Geeze, the way you guys argue makes me think that you'd shut down the very idea of free will once you've been dating more than a couple months. What is it you are so afraid of?