Failed bomb attack on US airliner

[Illusional]

i'm all for human torture... they have information that we need, that could save more lives...

but in reality, a terrorist's human rights are really worth more than a country's needs right?

raverboy

[shheadz]

On topic story told to me by my 8th grade teacher:

During WWII, German prisoners were brought back to U.S. prisoners of war camps, where they were sure they would be worked, tortured, and killed. They were sat down for their first meals at the camp, and saw they had real silverware, and the meals served to them were delicious, and more than adequate. Many of them thought they were being served their last meal.

They weren't tortured. Their meals were always delicious. They were given a fair pay for the work they did. Many of those prisoners moved to America after the war. They thought if prisoners were treated so well, then how good must it be to actually live here?

So what's the moral of the story? It's very simple: You catch more flies with honey than you do vinegar. By all means torture prisoners, and then deal with all the misinformation that comes out of their mouths due to desperation. Make their families, their friends, and their associates into terrorists because of their hatred for America, and the way it treated their brother, their father, or their friend.

However if you treat them likes brothers on this little rock we're all living on, they'll love you for it. They'll be your friend, and like friends they'll be happy to tell you anything you want to know. In the process you don't have to sink to their level by being an animal.

[Lipp]

However if you treat them likes brothers on this little rock we're all living on, they'll love you for it. They'll be your friend, and like friends they'll be happy to tell you anything you want to know. In the process you don't have to sink to their level by being an animal.

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8440535.stm[/url]

Kaboom. Idea fail.

But on the rest of the topic, keeping him alive would shame him more than being executed, but you'll have to read up on islamic societies to comprehend that.

[shheadz]

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8440535.stm[/url]

Kaboom. Idea fail.

You're missing the bigger picture.

[Mish]

Mish. What? Your logic is flawed.

End a known terrorists life so they can't kill more people. Or, let them live so they kill even more?

Imprison them so they don't kill more people. Kill them only if you want their clones to multiply for the reward of a "hero's death".

There's no flaw in this logic.

[DoesntMatter]

All Arabs and possible Muslims should be subject to the fuller searches that right now they only do to people at random. What a waste of time it is for them to frisk my 85 year old blue eyed grandma with a southern accent and frail posture

That they aren't doing that already says a lot

[ecojeanne]

if you weren't there, how do you know it really happened? seems to me it's enabled people in the name of 'security' get what they want, full and utter control without a single complaint incase lay people might get blown up. the amt of money that this body scan (scam) will generate for business as well as exposing the lay person to way more radiation(not a mind what they are exposed to in the air) by these machines...roll on the death toll from cancers.......what a load of bullshit these scares are. its another way of collectively getting the people to dupe themselves. i like having a healthy body therefore i will never travel again. NEVER!

[IndiReloaded]

Imprison them so they don't kill more people. Kill them only if you want their clones to multiply for the reward of a "hero's death".

There's no flaw in this logic.

Of course there is. Prison isn't exactly hard labour these days. Why should taxpayers pay for their incarceration?

Their clones are going to multiply regardless. Putting someone in prison will make no difference to that mindset? In the US, they would end up dead anyway unless your put them in [expensive] isolation. Labour camp, or indentured servitude to some service or something similar would be an acceptable alternative.

[IndiReloaded]

if you weren't there, how do you know it really happened?

I suppose the world trade centre 9/11 never happened either. Ground zero is still pretty impressive, you know.

I have a relative who is a commercial pilot. These things aren't exactly uncheckable, unless you live with your head in the ground.

[Mish]

Of course there is. Prison isn't exactly hard labour these days. Why should taxpayers pay for their incarceration?

For the same reasons why taxpayers pay for incarceration of criminals. You may want to read the formation and basics of modern western legislature, it will answer all of your questions of why criminals (including murderers) in a society are incarcerated and not executed and the benefits it brings to a society. You may also want to think about implication of legislative executions on human rights and freedoms of individuals in a society as well as the link to totalitarianism and dictatorship when these rights are circumvented.

Their clones are going to multiply regardless. Putting someone in prison will make no difference to that mindset? In the US, they would end up dead anyway unless your put them in [expensive] isolation. Labour camp, or indentured servitude to some service or something similar would be an acceptable alternative.

You cited execution as a necessary step to discourage more suicide bombing attacks, I simply cited the reason why your assumption is wrong. Not only wouldn't summary executions discourage that mindset, it would inspire more attacks. And by encouraging a more totalitarian regime with each new attack the terrorists would win by default. As such your solution to extermination of terrorism by execution of would be suicide bomber suspects is flawed. A real solution to this complicated problem would draw on elimination of terrorism not as physical entity replaceable by others, but elimination of it as a cultural force (i.e. complete elimination) something much more difficult to achieve, but something which would not require executions or degradation of human rights in western societies.

[Sanctuary]

Guantanamo.. how far will we go to protect American interests?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm-tFt3Itoc"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

*This video/post does not necessarily reflect my view on the debate over torture; but I thought I'd share it.

[Mish]

Of course there is. Prison isn't exactly hard labour these days. Why should taxpayers pay for their incarceration?

By the way, talking about taxpayer money and cutting costs. Here s an interesting article examining costs of incarceration vs legal execution in US, one of the few western countries which have a legalized execution system:


I can give you an idea why the death penalty costs so much and then I will give you some state examples and sources.
To begin with, the huge extra expense of the death penalty comes upfront, before and during the initial trial (and is much less as a result of appeals.) Here are just a few of the contributing factors:

• more pre-trial time will be needed to prepare: cases typically take a year to come to trial
• more pre-trial motions will be filed and answered
• more experts will be hired
• twice as many attorneys will be appointed for the defense, and a comparable team for the prosecution
• jurors will have to be individually quizzed on their views about the death penalty, and they are more likely to be sequestered
• two trials instead of one will be conducted: one for guilt and one for punishment
• the trial will be longer: a cost study at Duke University estimated that death penalty trials take 3 to 5 times longer than typical murder trials

Some examples:

Washington State:
•At the trial level, death penalty cases are estimated to generate roughly $470,000 in additional costs to the prosecution and defense over the cost of trying the same case as an aggravated murder without the death penalty and costs of $47,000 to $70,000 for court personnel.
(Final Report of the Death Penalty Subcommittee of the Committee on Public Defense, Washington State Bar Association, December 2006,
[url]http://www.wsba.org/lawyers/groups/committeeonpublicdefense.htm[/url])

....

[url]http://www.ansarasra.org/incarceration/why-would-an-execution-cost-more-than-incarceration[/url]

[IndiReloaded]

For the same reasons why taxpayers pay for incarceration of criminals. You may want to read the formation and basics of modern western legislature, it will answer all of your questions of why criminals (including murderers) in a society

Taxpayers pay for their OWN citizens, Mish. YOU are the one that doesn't understand this very simple point. Not a penny of my taxes go towards your country. Therefore, I don't claim Australian tax or health, I don't vote in Oz and I can't sit on one of your juries.

Simply put, Mish, this uninvited terrorist is not from US society. He has not been invited to participate in US society. Terrorists of this kind are intruders, of the most deadly sort. They, nor their families, are in no way connected to taxpayers of US society. They do not respect its values or society, they have not contributed to society. Therefore, they are not entitled to its benefits, which includes things like a trial by peers and prison.

Apologist that you are, tho, you probably don't want these criminals extradited to face the justice system of their own country either.

[Mish]

Taxpayers pay for their OWN citizens, Mish. YOU are the one that doesn't understand this very simple point. Not a penny of my taxes go towards your country. Therefore, I don't claim Australian tax or health, I don't vote in Oz and I can't sit on one of your juries.

Simply put, Mish, this uninvited terrorist is not from US society. He has not been invited to participate in US society. Terrorists of this kind are intruders, of the most deadly sort. They, nor their families, are in no way connected to taxpayers of US society. They do not respect its values or society, they have not contributed to society. Therefore, they are not entitled to its benefits, which includes things like a trial by peers and prison.

Indi, I wasn't talking about the rights of this particular criminal, I was talking about the benefits to the society in the form of protection of human rights, prevention of home grown radicalization, as well as other benefits described in the entry level legal studies. Can you please read my posts in their entirety before replying.

[IndiReloaded]

Mish there is a BIG difference between torturing innocents and those who have actually committed a crime. This guy should not be coddled; he should be put down, like a rabid dog. The only reason all those people didn't die is b/c his homegrown bomb didn't work, not b/c he was a 'misunderstood minority' or had second thoughts. He needs to be made an example of, IMO. Hang em high.

Don't be an apologist on this, Mish. Its just wrong.

I thought you were continuing to respond to this post, which was about the recent attempt to blow up a plane over US soil. Most posts about it were regarding the failed human matchstick.