Do we think this is a cause for concern, or maybe a good thing?

[cycletease]

That does sound promising. It is nice to finally have him uncomfortable since he seems to have been the puppet master all this time. I am glad you have shifted the balance of power a bit, that really needed to happen.

Keep doing what you are doing and let me know how it goes.

Also, don't you think that it is interesting how much he wants you to hold on? It is like a little game that he is playing...he acts disintersted but as long as you stay interested he can have you on his terms? The moment you disengage then the game is over, he is getting nervous.

[Tonia2]

I know... but I have to question my own processes too - part of me must like some of the drama of this. I do wonder how I would behave in a relationship where I was doted upon. Although this happened at the beginning of our relationship, I often felt strangely detached from it. I could see this great, sexy guy promising me the earth, and I was a little bit ambivalent. I do think that we are both avoidant, just whoever has the power is the more so - and that has been him for the most part lately.

I just missed another call from him. All so strange! I want to take this a day at a time and enjoy it for what it is, but I basically think that this relationship is untenable unless he gets some help. God, I am getting all the help I can - I am even going to a 12 -step SLA meeting on Monday evening...

But I get what you are saying. On the surface, you would think that he had made his decision, and would therefore be pleased that I am coming to terms with it (by my distancing) and yet he can't let me go. What is that all about???

[cycletease]

I don't think that that is really what he wants... It's cake and eat it too.

He has no problem letting go as long as you are on the line but as soon as he sees you might be moving on he feels he has to reel you back. Strange dynamic at his age; expected from a teenager but not a grown man. He may not even know he is doing it, he may just be following instinct.

[cycletease]

Thanks again for your advice - how are things for you at the moment?

1) I keep convincing myself that me and ex can have this kind of ½ relationship

2) He went back on the counselling thing and said he was just curious to speak to someone – but that he didn’t believe he was commitment phobic.

3) Basically, between being incredibly intimate and loving (him saying I am ‘flawless’ and that he loves me) he told me that I was obsessed with him and that perhaps we should date other people to get some perspective.

4) he said he didn’t think we should sleep together any longer, as he was afraid of hurting me.

5) He kept saying that he needed to get some distance from me to get clarity.

6) He also said that if we did get back together, that would be it – taking temperatures and starting a family…

7) Every time I was drifting off to sleep he would ask me stuff like how I felt
Anyway – last night spoke to him and it turns out he went to see his ex-wife. I was livid – it has always been a thorny issue, and he deliberately withheld his intention to see her on Saturday.

8) he said he didn’t owe me those kind of explanations at the moment, which really hurt.

9) She has a new baby, and he said she had mellowed so much. I asked if he thought the marriage could have worked with her like she is now, and he said yes, which really hurt, but he also said that if we had a baby, our relationship would probably work… so confusing!! We managed to end on a light-hearted note, and one good thing was that I asked him about his nostalgia with his marriage. He said that he was also besotted with me at the start and really loved me – still does.

10) He has said he wants us to go out with his friends soon – but I imagine he would behave like a ‘friend’ towards me if we did – which I am comfortable with to be honest.

11) Crumbs from the rich man's table? I am going away next Tuesday for a week with 6 people to a farmhouse in France, and I am hoping that this will give me distance and clarity...

Dam Tonia,
I have read this several times and been mulling it over for a couple of hours, all I can say is this is a maddening situation. You have every reason to feel confused and unsure. You are being drug in one direction then slapped back that opposite way.

Just some thoughts on your previous post:

1/2 a relationship. true. Is it possible to make a relationship whole when one has gotten used to the truncated form? One would presume that if he wanted a whole relationship he would say the word, so you have to assume that half a relationship is what he wants. If he is getting all that he wants right now what will ever change for him? As we agree, he is in need of counseling, but if he is always allowed to live with his dysfunction without any negative effects what will cause him to run out and get that counseling?

We know this is not ok for you long term and that this is a total compromise since what you want is a complete commitment. So what he has parlayed himself into is a completely uncommitted situation where he gets everything he wants and you are not allowed to pressure him at all. He can tell you things like he is unsure if he even wants to be with you at all, but still get the nice advantage of your love and company anytime he feels like it.

Is it any surprise that he doesn't want you to let go? Dam! He has it made! Whether this was his overt intent or not, this is how he has arranged it and is happy with it. Why, Tonia, why will he ever commit if he can have you when he doesn't have to? Is he going to have an epiphany, change and confront all of his issues and see himself and his situation clearly and realize what a fool he has been and decide that now he finally wants to settle down? How old is he?...he doesn't want counseling...he isn't losing the girl he really loves...what is it that is going to push him to this?

He is not a bad guy for this, this may not be his goal, he may not want to hurt you...but he is thinking about himself. He is trying to make himself comfortable, not trying to push his boundaries. He is telling you truth, he is saying: I love you but I do not want to have to be bound to you just in case I change my mind.

2) Counseling might force him to look at his situation and make a change. While you and I might really want to understand our motivations and make changes to be healthier, we are not indicative of what everyone else wants for themselves. Your guy has made it to his mid-thirties being the way that he is, at that point he is pretty comfortable with himself. He knows he is a psych-job but he has come to terms with that and is ok with it by now. He would have sought counseling sooner if he wasn't.

3) The obsessive comment really bothers me. I am thinking about it, does a person lie when they feel cornered or blurt out their true feelings? I don't know. For him to say it at all means he had to have thought it. It may not be logical since it is he who is doing all this calling, but maybe in his mind it is you. Maybe this is all an attempt to let you down easy... I don't know but it is troubling.

4) He doesn't want to sleep with you, huh? Righhhht. But maybe he is just saying this because he knows he is setting you up? ALso, maybe it is hard for him to think things through clearly when the sex is there and it clouds his thinking.

5) Interesting that he wants distance, in his head, but in reality is terrified to not talk to you several times a day. I would be that in his mind he is thinking you are the one contacting him. It sounds strange but it happened to me...

My bf calls me/emails me all day long, always has. If he forgot i had an appointment he would call everyone I knew in that hour to see if they had heard from me. If i go out with my friends he calls. I really don't mind. But during our rough spot he accused me of always bothering him (i hardly ever call, and never when he is with his friends). He said that he never has time for himself and blamed me for it. In reality, he has now told me that he knows that he makes choices to decline invites, etc to see and talk to me but then blames me for it when he misses that other time. It is a strange dynamic.

So my thinking is that he thinks that you are the one calling and pushing even if you aren't. This might explain the "obsessive" comment and the "need for space" comment.

I say give him more space, like you are doing, until he can realize for himself that it is his issue. My guy realized it, I think yours will see it when he has to.

6) I wonder if the exwife having the baby started some of this crisis. His exwife starting a family would have to affect him to some level...it would have been him if they hadn't divorced. He would suddenly start reflecting on himself and his situation and I could seem him freaking out. Perhaps he wants to see himself with a family but is really unsure of himself..that is a lot of pressure for anyone. If your guy had commitment issues to start with this might be enough to put him over the edge. He might also be blaming his internal pressures on the relationship.

7) knowing that you would be angry, it is no surprise that he kept the info from you. Guys will go to great lengths to keep you from being upset. They would rather sneak than have a confrontation (I have found). Your best bet on that front is to school yourself into calm interest so that he feels comfortable talking to you about things. WOuldn't you rather know that he is doing something you sort of dislike than have him sneaking and doing it?

I see no real problem with him seeing his exwife unless he has intentions of starting back up with her. If he is having a family crisis issue then maybe seeing her will help him resolve it.

8) Indeed that is hurtful. He really does want his cake and eat it too. Also, this is exactly the kind of thing I would expect when someone is cornered. You did force his hands by getting angry about his seeing the ex so it doesn't surprise me that he attacked back.

9) Definitely think that he is thinking far into the future and is scared. I think that is the biggest fight you are facing. Your daily relationship is good, great, even...but he is fighting this 10 year family thing. Will he cut it, will he be happy, will he be a good father, husband? He failed before (in his mind), he doesn't want to fail you (hurt you)...these are the things i see going through his head.

10) Not sure if I could personally live with him acting publicly like a "friend". I think it would kill me. Assess the carefully for yourself before setting yourself for hurt.

11) Go away and have some fun. It will do you both some good. Encourage him to go away, too. He does need some perspective.


Also, I am reading a book that I think might be good for you, too. It is a bit churchy but is a quick and easy read and might be insightful for you.

Shaunti Feldhahn
For Women Only: What you need to know about the inner lives of men

[cycletease]

Ooh, ooh, i think it is my longest post ever!!! A new personal record!!

[Tonia2]

And probably the most helpful that I have ever had! I am going to go and digest this excellent analysis - it is objective, kind, thoughtful and insightful. Thank you...

[cycletease]

Thank you for saying so. I hope that some of it does help. Remember, this is just my interpretation of the breif things you have said and I may be totally off base.

[Tonia2]

No, not at all... I think I had a bit of an epiphany yesterday, and maybe (although lets not get too excited) I am starting to have some healthy resentments and anger. How dare he tell me - his sort of girlfriend - that he thinks things could've worked out with his wife, you know?

He uses selfishness to masquerade as honesty too often, and I am beginning to realise what a complicated and f*cked up individual he is in a lot of ways. In the guise of loyalty and being honourable, he has had everything on his terms and made me question my own worth. No-one should do that to anyone else...

I am having him for dinner tonight, and I think he will detect a certain cooling off from me - it will probably make him more interested. I am not there yet, but unless we can resolve some fundamental issues at least I can see a day in the future when I will look back on this with a healthy dose of cynicism and anger, rather than taking everything on myself.

As far as his obsessive comment goes - that is bourne out of desperation I think, but I do agree that he is managing to manipulate things to blame me a lot of the time, which is so unfair. And his arrogance at times like that is just staggering! I don't think it is a lie as such, but he has always known how to go for my Achilles heel.

The ex-wife/baby thing has been a factor in our relationship for a long time, and I agree with your points on this. He seems to have an almost tangible battle going on between the desire to settle down with kids and the desire for freedom - it has definitely been a theme for a long while. He won't acknowledge how much it has affected him, yet again.

I will let you know how dinner goes later...

[Tonia2]

Really sorry for the constant updates, but what do we make of this? I am feeling positive and happy and composed and get a call, and it all comes tumbling down again. He called to say that he was looking forward to dinner and what time should I expect him. He also wanted to tell me that he has been offered a great pay rise and a permanent contract. He was calculating how much holiday he would get (always our biggest bone of contention, because as a contractor and with our relationship a shambles he would never take one) and how much money he would be making per annum and I was trying to be pleased for him, but I was gutted. He proudly told me that I was the only person that he has told – like I am supposed to be grateful for that??? Anyway, I made a joke about the holidays and he laughingly asked if I was bitter.



I decided to be honest and said that I felt that I had supported him through all the bad sh*t (redundancy, no holidays) and now he is on the crest of a wave I am essentially redundant. He said that I wasn’t and I felt he wanted to say something else, but we left it. 2 mins later, a text:



‘sorry sweetheart, I didn’t mean you to make you feel left out. I’d like you to be able to share my good fortune. Looking forward to seeing you tonight’. I have left it. What do you think he means by this? I am not upset about the cash, but the holidays… does he want me to literally share in it, or to share his pleasure?

[cycletease]

On this one I would say (unusually) to put your own feelings aside and be happy for him. A really good thing happened for him and you need to be happy and supportive of it even if it makes you feel insecure. Don't steal the thunder from his good news. If later you feel you need to address it then do so, but for now put on a smile and tell him how happy you are for him.

[Tonia2]

Ok. Thank you so much for the advice - I will absolutely do what you say - you have saved me yet more heartache - I would have probably been difficult and quiet and sulky until he drew it out of me, but now I will be bigger than that.

You really have lightened my heart - thank you sincerely...

[cycletease]

You are my hero for the morning. I am so proud of you. In spite of all of this hardship and heartache you are doing everything you can to be a better person and work it out. You haven't chosen to fall into the easy trap of doing what comes naturally to you. You are thinking your way out of this situation instead of responding with pure emotion, that speaks so highly for you.

Your comments this morning about finally getting in touch with some anger about this situation have lifted my heart. I have been so worried about you and this makes me feel like you are on the right path. Of course, I don't want you angry and bitter in the long term, but you do need to get in touch with your very deserved anger in this situation.

Keep seeing your counselor, I think you are really doing great!

[C1d6OC]

Wow, cycle you seem to nail things quite well. I almost don't even need to post my responses anymore. I've read through each of the posts one by one and I really can't elaborate. Even with this most recent, Tonia, cycle is right on this. Be happy for him because it's an accomplishment he made for himself.

I just wanna say that Tonia you have done great despite what you post. Don't ever appologize for posting, because if you continue to do so and we feel we can help, we will gladly give you any advice we think is suitable regardless of the situation. This thread has given me the most insight as to how to handle mine. Regardless if it seems hypocritical. I like helping you in whatever way I can and I thank you for doing the same for me. Keep us posted.

Cdoc

[cycletease]

I like helping you in whatever way I can and I thank you for doing the same for me. Keep us posted.

Cdoc

Well said.

[Tonia2]

Thank you so much guys - it is really nice that you think I am doing OK. Below is a quick update for you again... hope it is OK.

I am becoming increasingly ambivalent. I remember the good old days when we couldn’t get enough of each other, but this sort of ‘replay’ of the beginning of the relationship all seems a bit false to me at the moment. I am sure I would be susceptible to someone else at the moment – someone who treated me like a princess.

Last night was OK. He came round with a huge bunch of flowers, which was really sweet, and I did drag him off to the bedroom I’m afraid. Had to compose ourselves for when my bro came back, and then the 1m exclusion zone was erected for his benefit, which felt awful. I was super-conscious of whether he was looking at me conspiratorially (which he wasn’t) and he seemed to feel a bit more comfortable with things than I did. He got a bit pissed and stayed til quite late – I was pretty uncomfortable about it to be honest. He also said that the mate he had seen the night before had been singing my praises. I asked what he had told this guy, and he said that he had told him that we were still seeing each other socially (which hurt – I am not into this lying).

Earlier he had called again to apologise for upsetting me and I tried to be gracious – making a joke of his text asking if I was to share the rewards financially… he said that as his ‘special friend’ then of course… he then qualified this and he said that I was more than a mate, but not his bird, then he said, ‘actually you kind of are my bird – we seem to have blurred the boundaries somewhat.’

Not brilliant, but a start. So anyway, he left very messy, but called this morning to apologise if he hadn’t made much sense when I had been trying to talk to him. I told him that I am acutely conscious of things getting ‘boring’ but he said he had really enjoyed himself – I was just very on edge that the banality that he didn’t seem able to live with was creeping back in. That is making me really uncomfortable… I asked if he was uncomfortable with me telling my friends and he said he wanted to discuss it on Sunday – I said I wasn’t up for a big heavy discussion, and he was like ‘it won’t be, that’s cool’.

So that was my evening… the overwhelming feeling is a bit flat to be honest. I want to be adored again, but I will see how it goes