Army

[Mish]

If the sons and daughters of the rich had to serve, then maybe their parents wouldn't be so anxious to get our country into Wars.

It used to be like that during Monarchy. What usually happened was all the rich kids got the top spots of commanding officers, lieutenants, captains and generals and the rest of the soldiers became their personal servants.

[Gigabitch]

If I were queen, it wouldn't be like that. Everyone would start out at the bottom. Only career military would be officers.

[Junket]

I agree, AmeriCorps could also be beneficial, but you know...there's nothing like signing on the dotted line and essentially saying, "My life for my country's values." Hopefully, it doesn't come down to that--hopefully, as General Patton would say about war, you make the other poor bastard die for his country.

Don't think AmeriCorps is exempt from tragedy. There are 2 people I had met that died during their AmeriCorps*National Civilian Community Corps term. One of which was married and had children. Shit happens. No, it may not be from bullets, but if you think about it, that's even worse because nobody expects it.

I don't believe programs like NCCC should be mandatory because there are too many slackers out there that would ruin the program (the way it is setup now). I was lucky to be part of a very dedicated, hard working team. We set much of the drama and bullshit aside and busted our asses off. Unfortunately, I met other teams that weren't so committed to their service.

NCCC was a good example of gender equality. The shortest, and probably weakest girl on our team stepped up to be a chain sawyer with me. We were both trained in felling trees, and maybe she wasn't as strong or fast, but she could still do the work.

Like I said, I don't believe in mandatory service. It would be ideal if we could shift our cultural values to embrace various forms of public service. Some schools press college very hard, other schools, especially rural and poorer high schools press military service. Volunteer service programs are often forgotten. Which is in part due to a lack of funds to sufficiently market them.

[Perryville]

Having knowledge about a subject, isn't the same as experiencing it. Reading about War, watching documentaries, Movies or TV programs tells you nothing about the human cost, so sorry Cam you KNOW nothing.

[CAM]

Having knowledge about a subject, isn't the same as experiencing it. Reading about War, watching documentaries, Movies or TV programs tells you nothing about the human cost, so sorry Cam you KNOW nothing.

Okay, have your way. There's no point in arguing with the closed mind.

Taking the stringent position that expertise comes only from experiencing events is nothing medieval anti-intellectual crap.

I grew up with Vietnam vets that said the same stuff. Nobody could understand them. They were angry at us for not understanding but then told us we weren't qualified to understand.

What I found particularly amusing was that the Vietnam guys were telling us this stuff (above) and meanwhile we had the African-Americans telling all of us the same thing but from their point of view--we should understand them, but we couldn't because, in their view, as non-blacks we weren't capable). And, then we had the women's movement telling us the same thing.

Perry...want to live on island by yourself where nobody is capable of understanding you? If so, go do it. But please don't inform us of your special status, essentially beg for recognition, and then slam the door in our face. That's BS.

My ability to "understand" wasn't built around watching t.v. or movies.

You really ought to read "War is a Racket"--it was written by a soldier...but you didn't read my suggestion. You were just looking to lash out.

BTW...you did notice that nobody is questioning your claimed credentials.

[shheadz]

No, it may not be from bullets, but if you think about it, that's even worse because nobody expects it.

Agreed. We had an 18 year old kid die of heat stroke during a 5 mile march just a few weeks before leaving for Iraq. Somehow that seems more tragic than dying in combat. I can't even imagine being his parents and getting that kind of news.

[shheadz]

Okay, have your way. There's no point in arguing with the closed mind.

He doesn't have a closed mind. Just like the vets you mentioned, you really can't understand unless you've been there. And just like the vets said, you don't rate to hear about it. You can argue the point till you're blue in the face, but Perry is right.

You really ought to read "War is a Racket"--it was written by a soldier

Correction.. He was a Marine.

[CAM]

Yes, he was a Marine. I stand corrected.

If understanding=experiencing the ugliness of war, then fine...I will never walk in his boots.

Like I said before, this technique is used to shut down any discussion and that's fine.

I volunteered and served in the Army. Perry, I don't feel guilty because I wasn't on a battlefield...I know that what this pissing contest is all about because it is regular occurrence. I don't think that tarnishes my service commitment. I admire anyone who has served, although I'm sure that you would tell me that I'm not worthy or capable of admiring you so I should just give up trying, right?

Discussion ended.

[Lipp]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWqT8Rljt_8"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

Yebo.

[shheadz]

Like I said before, this technique is used to shut down any discussion and that's fine.

I can say with all honestly that's not the case. It's just too much work. I'd have to write a book, have you read it, and then we can start talking. It's a lot easier to go to the local VFW, and discus these kinds of issues with men and women that are already on my level.

[IndiReloaded]

Yes. But not if they just ship them to the Afghanistan meat-grinder.

[CAM]

I can say with all honestly that's not the case. It's just too much work. I'd have to write a book, have you read it, and then we can start talking. It's a lot easier to go to the local VFW, and discus these kinds of issues with men and women that are already on my level.

And, I've done that in small town rural America where I was raised. And, nobody discussed in terms of "on my level." It was discussed in terms of "in my experience."

I know, I know...it sounds like semantics, but in fact it sets the very tone which I've been essentially pointing out which is highly problemmatic. Among the younger generation of VFW people...they tend to divide themselves into those who have served on the battlefield and those who haven't. Your doing that shit to me right now, ya know?

The "on my level" attitude is what got the Bonus Marchers in trouble in the 1920's. Its also the "on my level" attitude which led to the Freikorps.

I'm not disparaging anyone, far from it. But what we have going here is a little problem between the civilian world (lacking morals and commitment) and the military world (generally much more moral and much more committed). Yes, and there is a huge literature on the growing gap between the military and civilian world when it comes to basic values. And now, this is when we start getting into the the "on my level" kind of stuff.

[CAM]

When the civilian leadership loses commitment to the military (single digit percentage increases in the DOD budget for 2010 and double digit for the entitlements) and the economy sinks further into the dustbin, then watch out.

We've set ourselves up for the next stage in Plato's cycle...tyranny. Sadly, if history is any guide, it will be an E-4 with a Bronze Star and an "on my level" attitude.

[CAM]

I'd have to write a book, have you read it

Remind me: wasn't I just told that reading books won't increase my understanding or knowledge level?

[BoredGeorge]

Do you think that service is beneficial to young men?

It is about as beneficial as forced service of prostitution for young women.

If you think going off killing people and getting killed is helpful for young men. Then maybe we should just conscript our young women as state owned sex slaves while we're at it.