Did Women's Rights Destroy Traditional Marriage?

[Mish]

it's just unfortunate that men took advantage of women thoughout history when we were weak.

History wasn't kind to women because most of our history so far had been spent operating via "Might is Right" principle a domain more advantageous for men. Now that we are finally beginning to see the self destructive (if not apocalyptic) aspects of this principle we are starting to progress towards more harmonic methods of operation. I think it's in women's best interests to make sure our societies progress down those paths of harmony and fairness (where neither party is mistreated or taken advantage of) and encourage these every step of the way. I think with the right level of progress in that direction true equality will finally be possible.

[vashti]

Sorry Vash, but this is my experience, as a scientist and a professional myself. I'm around these women all the time. My physician (and probably yours) talk about this. My friends are like this. They complain about their lot, but that's just the standard complaining that ppl do. Fact is, as you say: they go back to work. And most career women do. How many do you know that *happily* gave up a career for home? And, of those women who wished this, how many REALLY needed to work, for financial reasons? Were they supporting their husbands? I doubt it, b/c if they were then the childcare would not be an issue.

To be clear, when I say 'really needed to work' I mean, to put food and a roof over their heads. Not to pay for million dollar homes and expensive lifestyle.

I know a woman who actually separated from her young son & husband so she could take a faculty position in another state. No jobs for her here. This is just one example. I worked an 80 hour a week job and juggled family and work for many years. B/c there was no way I was giving up all my hard earned education to stay home and keep house and raise kids. Any woman can do that.

You are kidding, right? Not "any woman" can raise MY kids, at least not as well as *I* can. A woman who would actually leave her child so she could take a job in a another state hardly qualifies as a mother, IMO. She'd be more like an egg donor.

My husband has many female employees over the years, and he says most wanted to stay home when their kids were little, and he's had to do quite a bit of counseling with crying women in the workplace after maternity leave ran out. These are science women, BTW. He said the women claim they couldn't afford to stay home, and with the price of housing in this area, I don't doubt it although I agree that in most cases, a change in lifestyle expectations would have allowed them to sacrifice the money, but not many husbands these days are willing to live in an apartment rather than own a house so their wife can stay home while the kids are little. Of course these women go back to work when the kids are older. After you pay for an education, you generally expect to use it. I'm not sure how going back to work when your husband wants you to represents proof they preferred working to raising their babies.

BTW - I usually see nurse practitioners for my health care, and my two favorites regret they worked when their kids were little (younger than school age). The stay-home moms I hung around with when my kids were little were probably 1/3 professional women, and 90% with degrees in higher education.

[vashti]

BTW - whoever said "men are on top" - I disagree.

[ecojeanne]

physically and mentally women are created different from men. we are great, no doubt about it. but unfortunately men don't see it or respect it as much as before we got rights. talk about chivalry. its a phenomena hardly seen nowadays.

i agree to a certain extent about chivalry, but then i won't choose a man unless he has this quality, i am old fashioned in some ways but in other ways i am who i want to be and nobody is going to stop me. i know the rights from wrongs so i don't demand and won't do things that some men think is acceptable behavior. for instance one of the last jobs i worked the boss was a loud mouthed animal that was dragged up not brought up and everyone accepted it (except of course me, as you know i'm not sheepish) and he made my life difficult because of it. everyone else acted like it was ok to treat women like objects because they wanted to reach the top at any cost. this, i will not put up with and it got to the point that i had to leave because the morals and ethics were gone. others will tho, and will probably become the type of women you complain about. there are a few of them out there. he and many men like him still think women are stupid and not worth listening to.

[Indignant]

can i just mention that i would like to thank Fras for starting this intellectually stimulating topic. i am so sick of heartbreak after break up, long lost loves or does he love me or not topics.

[ecojeanne]

BTW - whoever said "men are on top" - I disagree.

oh puleeeze, men get paid more statistically and more men are in charge of running things, you know it as well as i do

[sarah_rsl]

I think the premise is easily proved by the fact that high rate of marriage break up coincided with the rise of womens rights. However thats not to say that the traditional marraige was really worth protecting anyway.

I left my job to get married, my husband was in a financial postion that he was able to support us both financially so we're luckier than the majority of couples that need to have two incomes just to survive in todays economy. In a way we had a unique set of circumstances I had joined the army at 16 and had expected to stay there till I retired. He knew that marrige to a civillian would be awkward and that my fairly recent desire to have kids had started me reassing my future in the army. So when he asked me to marry him he told me flat out that he want me to leave, and that he wanted to support me the old fashioned way.

So a lot of decision making was done for him, and I was actually quite happy for him to do it cause I don't think it came naturally to him. I like to think that some of the success he's enjoyed in the last year is down to my support. we went through a difficult family crisis with his in laws,as well which was made easier my being available full time , which is one of the reasons we put off having kids for a while. I think we both enjoy having the more old fashioned type of marraige.

[Junket]

I think the premise is easily proved by the fact that high rate of marriage break up coincided with the rise of womens rights. However thats not to say that the traditional marraige was really worth protecting anyway.

This is exactly what I was getting at.

It was just an observation I wanted to see if others agreed with.

Some of the women here are getting really defensive.

[lesa]

Did Women's Rights Destroy Traditional Marriage?

Yes, of course it did!

If I was completely dependent on a man, I highly doubt I would seek a divorce if I was not satisfied or if he was cheating, etc. And if he was abusive, I have to decide to stay with him, become a maid, or become dependent on the government.

If I was not dependent on a man, he would have to “work” at keeping me satisfied because his money and his house would not please me.


I am not suited for a traditional marriage so I could care less what happens to it.

However, if I had children I would prefer either I quit my job or my husband. Or work online, etc. Parenthood is the new job and either I or the husband (preferably both) will have to do it. I can't imagine working many hours and someone else watch my children ALL that time.

My husband and I would not be fully dependent on our "jobs" though. I will have businesses and online services as well.

[ecojeanne]

fras i think the rise is partly due to the fact that women don't have to do what they are told anymore. but i also think people are desensitised to understanding each other's feelings and in some ways people are less willing to try harder

i also think that a lot of people get married coz they are 'supposed' to at a certain age coz of society pressure and family pressure and then they realise they jumped in too quick with someone who is willing to marry them.

i see lots of girls making decisions to break up with someone coz they had a conversation with their bf when they met that there were certain conditions and when the guys feels he's not ready to marry a few years on the girl dumps him for another guy who is willing to marry her even tho the previous guy might have been perfect except for that piece of paper

[lesa]

This is exactly what I was getting at.

It was just an observation I wanted to see if others agreed with.

Some of the women here are getting really defensive.

Well I haven't read all the other responses but I agree with you. Forget traditional marriages!

[Junket]

fras i think the rise is partly due to the fact that women don't have to do what they are told anymore. but i also think people are desensitised to understanding each other's feelings and in some ways people are less willing to try harder

i also think that a lot of people get married coz they are 'supposed' to at a certain age coz of society pressure and family pressure and then they realise they jumped in too quick

I just think marriage is an outdated tradition, what it entails is asking a lot more than what it used to in modern culture.

Trying to force a square peg into a round hole, y'know?

We are by law, equal and aspire to the idea that men and women will receive equal education and job pay.

We live in more densely, diverse, interconnected populations with ability to travel thousands of miles within hours.

We live longer than ever before.

We have welfare and paid leave and insurance.

All these modern factors virtually overwrite any "need" for marriage for any one's survival.

[doppelgaenger]

Independence is not the final stage of growth though. At the moment I'm finding it hopeful that emphasis on effective interdependence as the next stage after independence is starting to appear in the progressive literature (we had to do studies on it at uni last two years). Effective interdependence is a great force that harnesses capabilities of individuals and lets them enjoy the benefits that neither could enjoy individually. Hopefully this will be our next stage of evolution and answer to a lot of current problems that we are facing.

Yeah, like getting rid of that bullshit called "nationality".

[Mish]

i also think people are desensitised to understanding each other's feelings and in some ways people are less willing to try harder

I think this is the real problem and main reason why there are so many failures in marriages. People are not as willing to be as understanding as has now become required and to be more understanding has become a real necessity for a marriage to survive where as it wasn't before. I think both sides are usually the culprit and are guilty of this.

[ecojeanne]

I just think marriage is an outdated tradition, what it entails is asking a lot more than what it used to in modern culture.

Trying to force a square peg into a round hole, y'know?

We are by law, equal and aspire to the idea that men and women will receive equal education and job pay.

We live in more densely, diverse, interconnected populations with ability to travel thousands of miles within hours.

We live longer than ever before.

We have welfare and paid leave and insurance.

All these modern factors virtually overwrite any "need" for marriage for any one's survival.

agreed to a certain extent, however i don't dismiss marriage altogether, i do think it is important in bonding the family unit when children are involved. it makes it more difficult for one to leave the unit as easily as they could if they weren't married, it means hopefully both have to make more of an effort