Protestant Family and my search for truth.

[Only-virgins]

Second, I believe that even if certain facts are uncovered by Science, if these facts are harmful to our society they shouldn't be revealed.

Lie to yourself and not me. There you are, imposing ideas onto others. Survival of the fit is one factor and mechanism of evolution. There is more like segregation and progressive. Though Survival of the fittest is definitely a huge part of evolution. If you can't run as fast as your opponent that just means he is getting the food first and you are becoming the food first. For us it has made its place into culture differently now, but it is still present.

Don't make me wave my weiner at this thread, because I will you know

Your weiner isn't big enough.

[DoesntMatter]

Logic vs faith is a matter of intelligence and stupidity.

"Faith" has nothing to do with intelligence jackass. Gauss for instance, one of the greatest mathematicians in history, was very religiou

[IndiReloaded]

you guys have beaten this subject to death.

THANK YOU, I agree. In fact, LA should publish this argument (which I believe he now owns) as an example of Idea Evolution (or at least rehashing) via the Internet, lol.

[Only-virgins]

"Faith" has nothing to do with intelligence jackass. Gauss for instance, one of the greatest mathematicians in history, was very religiou

WTF does a mathematician now about the origins of life? jack ass. Either way, I mean intelligence in a understand the world around you kind of way. Wisdom would have been the better word to use. There are some seriously dumb people who have accomplished a lot in their field...so? faith is the belief in something with out evidence, there is a word for that...it is ignorance.

[DoesntMatter]

WTF does a mathematician now about the origins of life? jack ass.

What I just showed you is that religious beliefs do not coincide with intelligence. One of the greatest mathematicians ever happened to be very religious. You said logic vs faith was a matter of intelligence vs stupidity. Clearly the two are independent

Anyone with 3 brain cells could see creationism did not happen. People believing in creationism have more than 3 brain cells. What I am saying is that something so simple, like the argument of evolution vs creationism, cannot gauge a persons intelligence. It just means someone is pissing their pants that their religion is wrong

[Only-virgins]

What I just showed you is that religious beliefs do not coincide with intelligence. One of the greatest mathematicians ever happened to be very religious. You said logic vs faith was a matter of intelligence vs stupidity. Clearly the two are independent

Anyone with 3 brain cells could see creationism did not happen. People believing in creationism have more than 3 brain cells. What I am saying is that something so simple, like the argument of evolution vs creationism, cannot gauge a persons intelligence. It just means someone is pissing their pants that their religion is wrong

You won't accept that Science vs faith is the same thing as Intelligence vs Ignorance? Intelligence is hard to define though, I would rather replace it with wisdom.

[IndiReloaded]

First of all, I don't entirely believe that notion "Survival of the fittest" is valid. I think it's a gross generalization which doesn't represent evolution in its entirity at all.

Its valid w/in a certain context. That is, like all things, capable of being taken out of context. Which is why, you may notice, I don't use the phrase. I too believe that 'survival of the fittest' should be relegated to the annals of Darwins *historical* document. Natural selection is a much better, more modern phrase & has much wider reaching implications, agreed.

Second, I believe that even if certain facts are uncovered by Science, if these facts are harmful to our society they shouldn't be revealed. What we talked about earlier, postive perspective over negative one.

Slippery slope, Mish. Who decides what is positive or negative, tho? And what should & shouldn't be revealed? To whom, the general public? Are scientists permitted to have 'all the facts' or are you talking about repression of information & research (something you claim to abhor b/c of your upbringing).

Should we have discovered the structure of DNA? Split the atom? Discovered that the earth is NOT the centre of our galaxy? What about information theory and the internet (the way all us evil atheists get our points across)? No Mish, you can't pick & choose your data to suit your theory.

What you are basically saying Mish, would be the destruction of the entire scientific method. You can't do research on just *some* of the facts, that's not how it works. Sorry.

For example, let's say tomorrow we find out that being selfish and trampeling everyone in your wake is the mechnism by which all life survives, would you advocate this to be taught in Schools?

If that was the TRUTH and we had tons of data to support it, then yes Mish, we would be obligated to teach it. But that is a ridiculous, hyperbolic example & you well know it. That is NOT what Natural Selection theory says. Which, if you would actually READ Origin of Species instead of Googling for excerpts, you would know. You are resorting to extreme examples that have NO basis in reality & they aren't adding anything to your argument except to make you look desperate & silly.

Thanks everyone, its been fun. I think I'll go look at some fun threads now. I've said all I need to. Cheers.

[DoesntMatter]

OV, you still got laid before I did, so no matter what you win

[Only-virgins]

OV, you still got laid before I did, so no matter what you win

I have to take a lesson from you. I think this thread wouldn't be this long and Indi wouldn't be ripping her hair out by now repeating herself over and over. lol Sucky thing is that I am not married and I got laid. I lose, I'm going to hell.

[Junket]

Hell can't be that bad considering it must be wrought with promiscuous whores.

[Mish]

Okay Mish, I am sorry to do this to you, but this has gone on long enough. You insulted OV by claiming 'victory' when its clear he had you balls over a barrel. Your rhetoric is getting nasty.

Indi, what a selective perspective. I am getting nasty? Perhaps you missed the bit where OV said I was going to bore you to death? I didn't start with the nastiness I simply continued it in the same manner

I know you feel threatened

Funniest lines in this entire thread

, but still, try to have some 'grace' as you put it. OV is too big to call you on it, but I think it needs addressing for your own sake b/c I think you will run into problems w/this false superiority complex you project.

You mean standing up for what I believe in is a superiority complex? Then you can as well accusee yourself of doing the same Indi.

I understand it comes from insecurity & superficial knowledge, but its something you should take a look at sometime. Actually, I suspect you already have had problems in this regard but I understand if you don't want to admit it.

Oh I see, so this is the part where you try to become my psychiatrist and psychoanalyze me? What a shallow and ignorant thing to say Indi. I hope you are reading this. You are saying that because someone disagrees with you and doesn't share your perspective it means there's something wrong with them? You blow me away Indi. I never said there's anything wrong with you, even though you aren't perfect yourself and even though you continuosly use the same arguments and same tactics as me I never once accused you of having psychological problems or complexes. Do you really have to stoop this low to win?

And the fact that you are surprised says a LOT about your biased mindset Mish, lol.

It's biased to be surprised that an Atheist takes their kid to a church?

I already said that science has nothing to fear from religion.

As Religion has nothing to fear from Science

Pity that religious ppl don't give the same nod to reason & science.

Yes, I pity that as well. Actually

Know thyself & then try not to pass too many of your personal neuroses onto the next generation, Mish. Have FAITH in their ability to sort things out for themselves.

I do. This is why I'm certain that Religion will always be there.

Nope, Mish, sorry your 'fact' of psychology isn't enough.

What's enough for you then? You want me to do a decade long study with statistical proves on this? I thought a simple fact was enough. You admitted yourself, you advocate a positive life perspective over a negative one.

Esp to someone w/a degree in psychology who is familiar w/the literature. Peer reviewed study from a reputable journal or I call bullshit on your so-called 'common sense' (I could get you several about about religiousity in prisons, lol)

.

So why don't you post them? Why don't you post this reputable information here. Don't say it exist and that it makes my debate points look like nothing. Post it here so we can see.

This is the same type of poor argument ID ppl resort to when scientists call BS on the crap posted on places like creationmuseum.org.

.

It's the same type of argument that you give as well.

What's happening tho, is that there's a certain amount of embarrassment associated w/having one's beliefs held up to the cold light of reason where someone says "See, this can't be true b/c we have x,y,z that proves otherwise". But, again, this is not a scientists problem. Our world view is internally consistent. The fact that this isn't the case for many religious believers is just something that they must come to terms with.

.

Religious people's world view is entirely consistent as well, for them. They don't need to come to terms with anything. They can just continue believing what they want to believe. I don't understand why it's so hard to understand? You can't force someone elses opinion onto another person, be it a Sientific one or a Religious one. This is what I've been saying all along.

A scientists says: lie to yourself all you like. It is your right to do so & I don't frankly care. But don't **** up everyone else (esp our kids) by lying to them also.

It's funny, because talking to Religious people, they say exatly the same thing about Survival of the fittest being taught in classroom. I think Atheists and Religious people don't really notice how much their actions are alike

And before you get all uppity & say there's no lying going on, here's a list of the lies that creationists openly tell:

I'm not justifying any of the Religious Myths Indi. I know what you mean. Yes certain things told by Religious people aren't true at all. Parents tell lies to their children. They paint pretty pictures of life with Santa and Easter bunny. They talk about boogey man. They tell their kids that they are beautiful and special even though they might be as ugly as a floater in the can. I understand that from Scientific perspective this is all wrong. But you fail to see that as well as Scientific perspective, there are other perspectives which are equally if not more valid.

Oh, and the best one: Life is too improbable.

For anyone who understands Darwins theory, this is readily (and beautifully!) explained in Origin of Species, which has only been strengthened by the subsequent discovery of the changable nature of nucleic acid chemistry & structure. And never even mind classic experiments like the Miller-Urey one (where they made basic amino acids in a test tube using electricity under conditions that could *easily* have existed on a young earth). Even better, we now know that things like RNA (a simple information system, simpler than DNA even) had the ability to make its own building blocks and copy itself & perform simple chemistry (the first catalytic 'organisms') so that basic life-giving chemistry and evolution could occur. Ppl are reproducing these conditions TODAY in labs all over the world. In fact, they are close to recreating the first cell, de novo, from basic chemicals (not from using preexisting 'designer created' cells).

Sounds interesting. I haven't read the link you posted yet, but I will

So, Mish, if you want to believe in a creator, despite all these INTENTIONAL lies, fine.

How do you know it's a lie? You say it's a lie because I have to proove it to you. But If I don't prove it to you, how do you know it's a lie? Can you say it with 100% certainty? If you can you must have prove of your own? If you can't you just don't know.

That is your right. But then just say so & stop trying to sound like your decision is based on reason.

I can base it on reason, but not neccesarily facts. I can use philosophy to justify my reasons just as validly. Science is not be all and end all.

It isn't. Sorry man, its blind faith

Indi, just who do you think you are to tell me what's fine for me to believe in and what reasons to use to justify what I beleive in? What I believe, what reasons I use and what matters to me are my businees and noone elses.

all the way & the longer science progresses and makes more discoveries, the more obvious this is going to be.

They will never have all the answers. Obvious is not enough, people need to have faith and believe. Religion wil always be there.

[Junket]

Don't touch it Indi, you have only so much time left on this Earth, it's not worth spending in this thread anymore.

[Mish]

Okay, I admit it. I think the time has come to leave this subject alone.

This has been an interesting discussion, but I don't think anyone is ready to embrace the other side and everyone has come as far as they can explaining their perspective. I think we should just leave it at the fact that there will be Atheists and Religious people in this world and somehow someway they will need to find a balance between the two perspectives so they can live with one another.

[IndiReloaded]

Mish (and everyone else who participated), I just wanted to say thank you for the argument. Seriously, I find it is incredibly rare to be able to have this kind of discussion w/o ppl getting their backs up beyond recovery. I was a bit worried the thread might need to be closed, as often happens w/this type of discussion.

Thank you all, but especially Mish for your insight. It takes balls to get out there & state your beliefs, few can do this calmly & effectively. I found this thread to be very interesting & informative.

Cheers & peace to all reading this.

[Only-virgins]

Cheers, it was what it was. A fun read if anything.