It's Friday Night...

[whaywardj]

*hugs*
________________

[gHEXjt]

You did the right thing. The only thing I thought I'd comment on was that you told him that asking you if you wanted to date other people was out of line. Obviously he has been pulling a lot of shit, but probably not in his mind. I asked my ex the same question when she broke up with me and acted like we still had a chance. Her response was the same as yours. Within a month she had a new bf and was acting like she hated me. If nothing else, I really just asked that question because if she said she wanted to see other people, then I could assume we were done. But the beating around the bush thing leaves some hope, and then when the new guy comes along, you've been holding on for extra time and it makes it even harder to get over the relationship. But its great that you laid everything out for him. Good for you!

[independent]

*hugs*

That was the shortest post I've ever seen from you!!!

Appropriate, though - and quite nice. Thank you

[independent]

You did the right thing. The only thing I thought I'd comment on was that you told him that asking you if you wanted to date other people was out of line. Obviously he has been pulling a lot of shit, but probably not in his mind. I asked my ex the same question when she broke up with me and acted like we still had a chance. Her response was the same as yours. Within a month she had a new bf and was acting like she hated me. If nothing else, I really just asked that question because if she said she wanted to see other people, then I could assume we were done. But the beating around the bush thing leaves some hope, and then when the new guy comes along, you've been holding on for extra time and it makes it even harder to get over the relationship. But its great that you laid everything out for him. Good for you!

Good point there... and one I had floating around in my own head.

There are still some issues for me to work out, obviously. I did invest two years of my life into this relationship, and I do care about him. Obviously I cannot trust him, and am very hurt by him... so it seems utterly hopeless that we will ever be able to get past it all.

Still, if he were to follow the letter to a T and never overstep the boundaries again in this lifetime... I honestly wouldnt mind meeting him for dinner on the weekend.

I'm being honest, even if that does sound insane. Maybe I havent finished processing...

Anyway. I doubt that will happen. Meaning, I doubt he wont cross the line. And I doubt he will change overnight. And I doubt there wont be a situation within as little as 7-10 days that makes me look at him and tell him that I dont want him in my life at all anymore in any way whatsoever - and actually mean it.

I expect he will continue as he is. And I expect it wont even hurt when the realization hits (hurt me, that is). Sadly.

He could shock me and do a complete turnaround. But I wont be holding my breath waiting for that to happen.

(replies are welcome - this is really really helping me to get through the entire ordeal!)

[independent]

It's probably worth pointing out, too, that I am a 32yo woman who is settled down with her children and career.

I'm not a teen or a 20-something girl like I used to be - where relationships were fleeting and feelings were fickle.

And as an individual, I consider myself less self-motivated than most people I've known. I have forgiven some of the worst offenses... over time, to allow myself peace of mind and forward thinking.

My first husband was 10 years older than me, and an abusive alcoholic, for example. You want to talk about a BAD 2 1/2 years - ack! But now we have wonderful conversations about our child together (not often, but when necessary) and I am not opposed to having him join us for a meal when we meet out of town to accomodate visits.

It's just who I am. Yes, it means I get taken advantage of sometimes. But I've always dealt with that in due time. In as much as I am not "self-motivated", I am also very protective of myself - realizing I am the one person on this earth who is going to take care of me, and never let me down. Thus my screen name... Independent.

[whaywardj]

Ah. So there IS hope. Unless something (a new romance, say) happens before that hope is met. Regardless of what either of you say to yourselves or each other, THAT sliver of hope exists and is what he's picking up on.

Scenario One: He does as you anticipate and, within 7-10 days, pulls a Bozo that just rips the fabric and cuts the chord entirely. You move on, wishing him well. That's the easy one.

Scenario Two: He does everything perfectly. For months.You relent. You and he get back together. Move in together again. Things are perfect. For months. Then, once he's comfortable and self-assured, he begins back-sliding into the same old stuff. Say, two more years down the road. Now, you're 34 or 35, going through the same stuff you went through with him at 32. Whatta ya do?

What MOST do, is beat themselves over their heads for wasting two or three more years of their lives.

So, the question really is: Do you want to gamble more time-of-life that he WON'T back-slide?

I'm not suggesting you do one thing or another. I'm just pointing out that, if there's a chance at all of you two reconciling, there's also the chance it'll all fall apart again further along down the timestream.

Naturally, that chance is ALWAYS present in ALL relationships at ALL times. It's only the quality of character of the lovers themselves which holds that outcome at bay. Do you believe, WILL you believe, there's sufficient quality of character in the two of you to avoid future pitfalls, or to tanscend them together when you can't?

Remember: You've said your trust is broken. How long do you imagine it will take for you to create a new trust together that can replace the one he's destroyed? It is only from that point in time forward -- and not before -- that you'll be able to begin rebuilding a good relationship; one where, at least, you cease being on alert for danger signals. So, you'll need to add THAT amount of time to the equations, as well. How much time do you wish to spend working on the matter and waiting for it to achieve final fruition?

[whaywardj]

It's just who I am. Yes, it means I get taken advantage of sometimes. But I've always dealt with that in due time. In as much as I am not "self-motivated", I am also very protective of myself - realizing I am the one person on this earth who is going to take care of me, and never let me down. Thus my screen name... Independent.

Uh...I think, Independent, that would be "Hence, my screen name...."

Just thought I'd mention that.

[independent]

Thank you for the correction

You bring up some good points... so let me clarify:

I will not move him back in with me. Well, at least not until my children are grown and raised, which is at the very least 9 more years -- and that would be considering everything were absolutely perfect (complete turnaround). So plenty of time there to figure out what's going to happen.

My children are my priority at this stage in my life, and I do not take "living together" lightly. Had I known I would be moving him back out, I never would have moved him in to begin with.

With that said, you must wonder "what's the point, then?"

Well... to be frank, I dont need a man in my life. My life is pretty much complete as it is. What I do need is friends, companionship, probably sex too. If that is not enough for him, then he will move on. Issue resolved.

It IS enough for me. I have a great life. A saturday night date and an exclusive lover that I enjoy being with would be the cherry on top. So I am not "husband shopping".

Been there, done that - already sold the T-shirt in a yard sale

I also dont need "a father for my children". They have a father, and I dont intend to confuse that situation.

What's left besides friendship & sex?


Does that seem shallow? Or cold? I dont mean for it to. I'm very happy (outside of this current conflict).

As for my thoughts on marriage... it would have to be DAMN GOOD for me to even consider it. I've learned that it is a major financial contract, so that is a factor I consider - I would only marry someone that didnt stand to put me back on the street if they decided they didnt like my ways. That sucked - wont do it again. And I would have to be totally content emotionally as well... why make yourself miserable in order to have someone in the house to help with chores? Better to hire a maid... or take the trash out your damn self.

In the end, no - I dont think what I will settle for will ever be enough for him. It's looking like it's just a matter of time, eh?

[independent]

Err - Ugh - I didnt mean that to sound like money is a big issue to me. It's not. I think what I meant to convey there was that I would want someone who was independent as well - and able to work and earn their own living. Not someone that depended on me, or needed a free ride.

Sorry if it sounded otherwise. My husband didnt work. I ran two businesses. I ended up getting my business account sucked dry, and then getting sued for HIS debts after all was said and done. Not pretty.

[whaywardj]

As regards your post number 23:

I take it, then, you said all that to him, in that very tone, over dinner. That's certainly the person who should be hearing it. (My name is Hayward, btw. Nice ta meet ya.)

What is there besides friendship and sex? Well, emotional intimacy comes to mind. For ONE thing.

Marriage? "...it would have to be damn good..."? I've never been one to degrade myself by competing with a woman's past. I don't know of any man who's his own person who would. I stand on my own ground, regardless of where she's been. She can take it or leave it. If that's the level from which she operates -- comparing me and weighing me against her comparisons -- then I don't really give a damn one way or the other. I'll just take what she offers and leave the rest. There's always a highway curling like smoke above MY shoulder.

I don't recall saying the words "husband" or "father" even once. Who you preaching to on those points?

I sense the presence of a disconnect. You say, "I don't think what I will settle for will ever be enough for him." Sounds as if you're blurring two impulses into one sentence. On the one hand, you have standards to be met. On the other, they aren't enough for him. What has he got to do with your standards and why are you trying to please him by making yourself "enough"? See the disconnect I'm referring to? I think you mean you'll consider sex and friendship with him and, if he doesn't like that, too bad. I don't think that's what your saying, though.

As regards your post number 24:

I'm sure you feel that way. I'm also sure his or a potential, entirely new paramour's financial standing will henceforth come under closer scrutiny from you despite your feeling that way. As time goes on, and such scrutiny becomes habitual, it may even become paramount in your affairs and you might find yourself having forgot ever having felt that money WASN'T a big issue.

And, yes. All in all, it does sound like just a matter of time. If you already know that, wouldn't the thing to do be to cut him loose and free to find his bliss with someone else? Or are you keeping him within arm's reach for the "friendship and sex" you're already familiar with? If so, that's very practical and convenient. Avoids having to spend time or energy looking for those things somewhere else.

[independent]

You've given me some interesting things to think about.

I believe you can have emotional intimacy without living with the other person, or marrying them for that matter.

As for my standards, they are not so high. "Damn good" in my book isnt "perfect" by any means. I think what I am looking for more than anything is BALANCE. Someone who compliments me, and vice versa. I'm not opposed to marriage at all - it's just that I dont see it necessary. And I am not feeling any pressure to seek that out at this point in my life. I may feel differently if I should meet a "damn good" person that I trust, enjoy and feel emotional intimacy with.

You mentioned cutting him loose - and maybe that is the thing to do. For his sake. You may be right in that I am being lazy and selfish in letting things stay as they are (you didnt use those words - I agree that I may be too complacent about it). I should have that talk with him. Now that I have written it out, it might be easier to put into words. To make sure he is aware of how I feel.


On the money matter, I should say that maybe I am not entirely clear what my subsconcious may lead me to on that end. After my divorce I dated a wealthy and prominent business man who seemed to love me very much. It didnt click for me (too soon after divorce) and I didnt stay with him. There were times I wished I could love him, because he appeared to be everything a normal woman would want: handsome, secure, friendly, accepted my children, etc. I look back on that and feel confident that money is not a driving force for me in relationships - but I might also look back and say perhaps it was the dependency factor (he being in a position and of a mind to "take care of me").

Hmm - some (inner) sorting out to do on that one.

My more recent fellow is not at all financially stable, and doesnt mind at all to depend on me when he cant come up with his share. In fact, more often than not I took him out to dinner.

I dont like that either. I should think it would be nice to find an equal.

[independent]

Hmm - to add to that: I didnt mean it in a comparative sense. I am not the woman I was when I was married - or even in other relationships (perhaps besides this most recent one). I've gone through many life changes... and so my standards have changed accordingly.

As for the husband and father remarks, they were merely points that go along with how I feel about marriage (which bleeds into the "living together" scenario, for me).

We had a rough first year together. Then we had a really great spell there for 6 or so months when we got back together. I asked him to move in with me because I thought we had come to terms with the original issues and were moving forward at lightspeed. I was wrong.

[whaywardj]

That's all well and good and quite aside from the point I was trying to make.

All the things you said in the posts I cited are things you should be saying to him. In just the ways you said them here. If "practicing" on us in this forum has helped move you in that direction, then "glad to have been service."

As to "cutting him loose," there's no maybe about it in my mind. You've already rejected him. Why keep him around at all? Seems remarkably like something he'd do to you. Keep you on hand so he could have this or that thing from you, and juggle and dance around all the other things that just weren't working.

The "equal" you may think about now and then is nothing more than a man who hasn't hurt you and you can trust won't. So far, it seems, men who were important in your life have rather consistently disappointed you in major ways. It's convenient you don't "need" a "man", or a "husband", or a "father" when those disapointments are there lurking. THERE's where I suspect your self-reflections would yield more meaningful fruits.

Somebody pass me some popcorn.

[whaywardj]

...To make sure he is aware of how I feel....

It's been my experience that, as long as it matters to you the other guy knows how you feel, other shoes remain to fall.

[independent]

As to "cutting him loose," there's no maybe about it in my mind. You've already rejected him. Why keep him around at all? Seems remarkably like something he'd do to you. Keep you on hand so he could have this or that thing from you, and juggle and dance around all the other things that just weren't working.

Interesting way to make me look at it.

I was thinking I would be content if things werent stressful between us (ie all the negatives were plucked out) and we could have great sex. But now that you've made me think about it... I am quite sure I would feel lonesome (eventually) for real conversation and true friends.

He's not a person I can really open up with and talk to. So why drag things out like this? Am I doing that for him... or doing that for me?

I know that he wants more. And holds out hope that he can fix everything. I doubt that he will change at all. I cannot trust him. I cant even talk to him.

And I dont want "more". I cant imagine committing myself to someone that shows no respect, ignores obvious boundaries... and puts me beneath everything else in his life (drinking, friends, sport, etc).

It's been my experience that, as long as it matters to you the other guy knows how you feel, other shoes remain to fall.

I guess I just meant I should lay ALL of the cards on the table, and let him make a choice based on those facts - not lead him to believe that I feel any confidence in our relationship getting back to where it was... much less beyond.


----

As I was sitting here thinking all of this through, trying very hard to write my response... it occurred to me that I've done this before.

Now my thoughts are off of him completely - and focused on ME.

To explain... I slept with my ex husband for a year and a half after our divorce. Yes, the one that screwed me financially. There was nothing there for us to talk about (outside of our child together). There were hurt feelings, no trust, no expectation at all of getting back together (on my end, and it seemed so on his end as well).

Our sex was great after the divorce. Better than it had ever been when we were married. I always said the divorce was 10x better than the marriage ever was! As long as we didnt talk, anyway. One night we were laying in bed, just after a mind-blowing time together, and he got up to walk around the bed for his clothes. Just then a song came on the radio "Beautiful Day", and I said "would you turn that up while you're over there? I love U2!". He stopped in his tracks and looked at me like I was a ghost - and I realized that he thought I said "I love you too" (a familiar exchange between us for so many years). It was the most awkward moment of my life.

We both moved on with our lives. Our careers. Our relationships. And I slept with him, until I didnt even recognize him as the man I knew anymore. The very last time he came on to me, it felt like I was with a stranger. It felt weird and gross. And I stopped it then and there.

The following year I dated a local fellow for about 6 weeks. It was going great, I thought. He broke it off with me when his ex-gf came back into the picture... 3 months pregnant. She turned out not to be (such juvenile drama!), and that phase passed. But I continued to sleep with him for a year and a half afterwards.

I can remember that he would come late (after my children went to bed). And afterwards he would hold me, and then sneak out at daylight - kissing me on the cheek. I would feign sleep, with silent tears running down my face while he spooned me. After he left I would curl up and actually sleep for a few hours.

One night I decided that I was tired of crying. And while we lay there, just afterwards, I said to him "you can go now". I didnt want to have to wait until daylight to fall asleep myself... and I didnt want to fool him into thinking he was doing right by me. We were both adults, it was consentual - no sense not being real about it.

That freaked him out, and ended the 17 month saga.


All I am saying is that this is obviously a pattern for me. Somehow I didnt realize that. And no - it didnt "work out" in the other situations (and no, those werent the only two).