Do we think this is a cause for concern, or maybe a good thing?

[cycletease]

I think you did the right thing. This has been an ongoing problem in your relationship and now you took the hard path and stood up for yourself. Whether it has any baring on the relationship or not, you did good for yourself. In the future he will be less likely to take plans with you so casually. He needed a kick in the pants and you have given him one. Let him be uncomfortable, he should be. You don't want to get settled right now anyways. You have a lot of things to work on and you both need to be out of your comfort zones.

[Tonia2]

He can't really seem to handle me being a bit stroppy! It is interesting, isn't it? In his marriage, the wife was constantly being difficult and threatening him with things and getting at him. I have been completely the opposite - accommodating and subjugating my own needs for his very often. It seems that neither work for him! And when I decide to stand up for myself, he doesn't really like it... interesting...

I got a text late last night apologising for being insensitive, saying he was stressed out with work and that he was looking forward to 'hanging' with me tonight. I wish he knew what the f*ck he wanted. Any ideas on how to push him on the counselling issue? HE has always been pretty idle and indecisive (as you have probably seen) but I don't want to be the one pushing the issue...

[Tonia2]

I. You sound like you have been the peacemaker in this relationship, because it shows in your efforts.

I mean did you come to the agreement about the exclusiveness before like you mentioned? Cdoc

Sorry Cdoc, didn't answer your question. As far as the peacemaker - that is very perceptive. He is a very easy-going guy, so there was never much peace to have to make, but I am like that in all my romantic relationships. Peaceful and non-confrontational to the point of extreme passivity. Not good - my own needs always get lost. If he wasn't such a nice guy, he could have exploited that big-time in the past.

Yes, we are exclusive. That is very very important to me, and he did not hesitate to agree with that. Still doesn't necessarily mean that we are bf/gf sadly...

[C1d6OC]

I'm starting to notice that you are slipping away again. I understand that you may feel like this is exclusive, but are you happy? Disregard my peacemaking issue and hear me out. This is the trend that I have noticed and yet, although I thought things were going ok (positive side), I may have completely misinterpreted things. I think what we need to remember is that if this doesn't necessarily mean that you are bf/gf, then maybe you need to step back again and think to yourself what is coming of this. I think he now knows that you will be there for him in some ways and is using that to his advantage (not intentionally). If you can't and still don't understand what he wants, then it's time for you to get back on the No Contact wagon, because although I feel you have been supportive through all this, you are yet again, NOT HAPPY!! This was ultimately the concern you needed to take care of. Yourself.

I know this seems hypocritical of me, because I like to look things positively, but in reality, you can't make this positive unless you come out of this HAPPY. And if this isn't making you happy, then you need to do what's best for you to make yourself HAPPY. I mean, how can you be happy, when you are still questioning his motives? You still don't know what he wants out of this and I assure you, I don't think he does either. I truly think you need to send him a message and be clear that you won't stand for this anymore and stir things up a bit. This may shock him. It's like I said before, you may in fact one day explode on him and it will probalby feel real good.

I'm not saying to stop what you're doing and I'm not saying to stop being supportive and seeing him, but ask yourself this. How long will this last before you won't be able to handle it anymore? It's up to you to decide what to do in the end, but please make sure that you don't go back to square one AGAIN! Move forward and don't step back.

Cdoc

[cycletease]

If he wasn't such a nice guy, he could have exploited that big-time in the past.

This made me think a bit. Although you are easy to take advantage of because of your desire to please, does this also mean that you have no boundaries? I don't think so. I think that your boundaries are different from other people's. I suspect that you are cautious about the people you choose to care about as sort of a prescreening process.

Keep in mind that him not exploiting you more doesn't make him a saint. Although he may be a nice guy he is in no way the perfect guy when it comes to relationships. He is a total mess and it is hurting you. While you choose to stay with him out of hope that he will sort it out, he has really only played lip service to protecting you from his issues. The moment that you are out of contact with him he draws you back in...if he was truly worried about your well being the most he wouldn't keep calling.

So he is a selfish guy...nothing you didn't know about him...which also doesn't make him a saint. And while he is not exploiting you overtly he is still keeping you on the line until he figures himself out. He is not actually giving you anything, but is not prepared to give up anything that he might want later on. My fear is that now he has it just how he wants it, a committment-phobe who doesn't have to commit but still has his girl on the line....not a tenable position for the girl.

I know that you are happy to be getting some sort of promise from him. May I ask you, is something always better than nothing? This arrangement comes at a price to you. A hefty price in the form of emotional torment, self esteem and worrry. If it were me in this situation what advice would you give to me? Would you really believe that this is good for me?

One of the lessons that I have learned through long experience is that loving someone and wanting to do things for them differs vastly from being a door matt. You can still love him and stand up for yourself. You did well this week to draw that line. You needed to do that and he needed to see it. If he cannot come to respect you more when you do so I fear that you have some insurmountable obstacles in front of you.

As far as pressuring him for the counseling, it's not really your position to exact any pressure right now. Unless you are going to start placing demands (which I doubt) there is nothing much you can force him into. You might suggest that this arrangement is a worry to you and that it would be a personal favor to you that he would seek some help. You can try that route and see if he will pursue it on that front.

Tonia, your guy is a total mess right now. Don't let his mess entangle you to the point that you lose perspective. There are some prices that are just too high. I just want you to be able to be fair to yourself and not pay anything just to be with him. An unhappy relationship can drain you dry just as quickly as a person exploiting. Ones tolerance for the see-saw is much lower when their heart is totally immersed.

This guy is really lucky to have you and he is a fool if he doesn't see that...not for what you do for him, but for who you are. You are devoted and in love with him completely. You give of yourself constantly. In a relationship you have to have someone who is willing to give back a little too.

[Tonia2]

Wise words... funnily enough, he just called to see why I hadn't replied to a couple of emails - I said I was busy, and he said 'ahh... your strategies really have changed.' It seems that as soon as I am looking after myself, he becomes really needy.

I am losing perspective. I am swept up in the (false) romance of these rushed, passionate meetings and the see-saw of power. Of course he is getting what he wants - I even think he is enjoying it when I withdraw my affection somewhat - he likes the buzz of feeling insecure - probably reminds him of his b*tch of an ex-wife.

I am going to go tonight, and I may well say I have to get the last tube home. I don't know. Cdoc - I also get what you are saying. It is hard to know if I am happy - I am definitely feeling more in control of myself and our relationship, and I am nowhere near as miserable as I was four weeks ago - but I am worried that this is false, and governed by the fact that we are in a sort of relationship with him at the moment.

I can tell you though, that he definitely wants to settle down and have a family soon, and that helps me when I think I might be in this place forever. He will make a decision sooner or later - and I think that it will be to go for counselling soon.

He might well be exploiting this situation, but I really really don't think his motives are malign. He is just very immature. He is also very arrogant, and that is beginning to wear quite thin with me to be honest, so maybe I will turn round sooner or later and think that I want out. I just don't know, but I will keep you posted on how tonight goes. Thank you guys - your staunch support is brilliant.

[C1d6OC]

Thank you guys - your staunch support is brilliant.

We're here for ya Tonia

[Tonia2]

Thanks dude. The one thing that I would counter is that he is not 'getting me with no commitment', he is getting bits of me, hopefully on my terms. I totally understand your reservations about the way that I am going out with him and seeing him, but I am hoping to be a bit stronger next time he suggests something and perhaps blow him out.

This way, I am hoping to maintain some intimacy, but not give it to him on a plate. I am also doing this by the fact that I am not in contact with him on his terms, but rather on mine. He is definitely missing some aspects of having me around all the time, and he knows how busy I have been while he sits on his arse watching soap operas...

[C1d6OC]

Ouch! Soap opera's ehh. I just said what I said before, because I hate it when reality gives us a huge kick in the ars and there ain't nothing we can do about it. 'Hopefully' on your terms is being humble. They WILL be on your terms and you need not accept anything else. As soon as you feel that isn't the case, make sure you make it the case. I think in general you are doing mediocre. By this I mean, you are not completely satisfied, but you are somewhat content with what is happening. You seem to be having that little bit of "hope" as they say and just keep with the 'small' portions of intimacy. Hey, you need to do what you think is right for YOU. Not what you think will change his mind. As you said, keep us posted, we'll be waiting to offer what we can. Peace for now.

Cdoc

[cycletease]

He might well be exploiting this situation, but I really really don't think his motives are malign. He is just very immature.

I agree with this assessment as well. But consider that the result is the same either way.

I also want to say that I am not against the arrangment that you have. You are the best judge of what is good for you. I am not in the situation so I cannot even speculate, I am just wanting to be the voice in your ear that makes you ask the right questions of yourself.

Your relationship is in a state of flux right now and I think that is a really good thing. If you work this right you may end up both being much happier. I think that being less at his beckon call is a good thing. I think keeping him on his toes by not being a sure thing is also a good idea. Maintaining a social life outside of him is a good idea (it is really helping me right now). I say just keep doing what you are doing just stay aware.

Being swept away is a fun thing and is truly the reason that we fall in love at all. Go for it and be in love...just don't lose yourself. You can do both. Have fun tonight.

[Tonia2]

THanks again for your advice - how are things for you at the moment?

I keep convincing myself that me and ex can have this kind of ½ relationship, and I am cool about it as long as it is exclusive. But the reality is, I worry constantly that I am not doing myself any justice at all, that he is taking me for a ride, that he will have no respect for the way that I am allowing myself to be treated, etc.



I can be lying in bed with him and thinking it is very cool that we have all the frisson of a new relationship and that in between times I just won’t think about it, but it is impossible to do that. I am doing lots of stuffn to fill in my time with thoughts and activities that don’t involve him and it is beginning to start penetrating that I amenjoying yourself in spite of him and our situation,


Friday evening. We went out for dinner, and then he asked me to stay. Dinner was fun and non-committal, and even going back to his was good at first. Then, we were lying in bed (the s*x is absolutely phenomenal, and all night) and he indicated that he was slightly uncomfortable with things. He said he was really worried about hurting me again. I said that as long as our relationship is exclusive I can deal with potential hurt. He went back on the counselling thing and said he was just curious to speak to someone – but that he didn’t believe he was commitment phobic. Bummer… I just knew I couldn’t push the issue though. THis is something I think I will insist upon soon if we are to continue - but at the right time.



Basically, between being incredibly intimate and loving (him saying I am ‘flawless’ and that he loves me) he told me that I was obsessed with him and that perhaps we should date other people to get some perspective. This, bear in mind, was at 4am, after me pinning him down and him saying that he really, really didn’t mean it but that he felt backed into a corner. At one stage, he said he didn’t think we should sleep together any longer, as he was afraid of hurting me. As I asked him again and again what he wanted, he also said (and again I think I forced him into this) that perhaps he should have the courage to say that it wasn’t going to work, even though he really doesn’t know, just so that I could get some closure. He kept saying that he needed to get some distance from me to get clarity. He also said that if we did get back together, that would be it – taking temperatures and starting a family…



Every time I was drifting off to sleep he would ask me stuff like how I felt about the fact that his ex-wife had said he ought to get me pregnant. Also, how I thought I would bring up a girl as opposed to a boy. He brought these things up when I was relaxed and not pinning him down (as I was falling asleep), which seems so weird to me… what is he getting at?? I also said that the sneaking around was doing my head in, but he said that he would feel a real cad if we came out in the open and then broke up along the line. He did acknowledge that we have a relationship going on, and he seems very very happy about the exclusivity clause. He also asked why I always referred to him potentially ‘f*cking me over’ when he was worried I may do the same to him – as if!!



Anyway – last night spoke to him and it turns out he went to see his ex-wife. I was livid – it has always been a thorny issue, and he deliberately withheld his intention to see her on Saturday. He explained it was because she often doesn’t show up, and he didn’t want to make it an issue before it was one – he knew how I would react. I calmed down a bit, but he said he didn’t owe me those kind of explanations at the moment, which really hurt. I challenged this, and he admitted that he did owe me more, as we are not just conventional friends. It seems he is desperate not to give too much away – typical CP I suppose… She has a new baby, and he said she had mellowed so much. I asked if he thought the marriage could have worked with her like she is now, and he said yes, which really hurt, but he also said that if we had a baby, our relationship would probably work… so confusing!! We managed to end on a light-hearted note, and one good thing was that I asked him about his nostalgia with his marriage. He said that he was also besotted with me at the start and really loved me – still does.



Sorry that this is such a tome, but you are all such a comfort to me, as an objective observers. Please be honest with me as to how you think I should proceed/ if I am selling myself really short. He has said he wants us to go out with his friends soon – but I imagine he would behave like a ‘friend’ towards me if we did – which I am comfortable with to be honest. He is also thinking of going snowboarding over easter with my brother! I asked if this would cramp his style, and he said that there is no style to be cramped, as we have our exclusivity arrangement. That is reassuring…

Crumbs from the rich man's table? I am going away next Tuesday for a week with 6 people to a farmhouse in France, and I am hoping that this will give me distance and clarity...

[C1d6OC]

Wow Tonia I read this and it almost seems back and forth. On one hand I see you guys having a wonderful evening and then he says things like he isn't sure if you should be having a sexual relationship. Other examples as well are easily shown. In my opinion, it is really hard to pinpoint what is going on, but you seem to be not letting anything slip. You are challenging his ways and ensuring that he understands that this really is a "fragile" point. I really think that it is great to see you are going away to France. It may give you a whole new perspective on the situation.

I think it appears almost as though you have such high hopes with this "exclusivity" and it is keeping you attached. What I don't understand is why he says it would work out if you guys had a baby. Is it like a final piece of the puzzle that he needs?? I don't know if his intentions are appropriate in that matter. I honestly feel as though this guy needs his head straightened a bit. This is no offence though. It is very clear he has no idea what he wants.

There are so many twists to this situation, it's almost hard to see what is the "right thing to do". At points, I feel like you should not see him and then there are times where I feel things might get fixed and then there are other times where I feel that maybe you are giving a bit too much into this considering you are an ex. However, it changes everything when you say it's like a 1/2 relationship. I think that it goes back to the start where you need to continue to look out for yourself and your happiness. If things are working out this way and you are happy, that is what matters. I don't think you are quite happy with a half relationship, but you seem to have the mindset it could get better, but these mixed messages are confusing you in the process. This is where I step in. This trip to France will be great for you. You may realize that the No Contact you had before was working and I think that until he says those magical words "I want you back for good" come into play, let him figure things out. Although you may not agree with me on it, I think it might be best for you.

In any case, I will wish you a good time in France. I will be here to post, but if i don't before then, I'm sure you will have a few things figured out and you'll have a great time.

Cdoc

[cycletease]

I have read your post many times. Just wanted to post up so that you know that I am thinking about you and trying to sort through all of this.

Just know that you are confused for good reason. Anyone would be completely spun by now. You are doing well to be as composed as you are.

You are going to be fine and I am glad about your france trip. I will post up when I have it all worked out in my own head.

[Tonia2]

Thank you - still trying to be cool about it all, and strangely succeeding in the short term - just ignored his call. He certainly behaves like a boyfriend in so many ways, but not in others. Calling like clockwork etc.

I am enjoying the rest of life - people back in my flat - life going on around me and I am getting involved. Feeling much happier...

[Tonia2]

Don’t panic guys. I have been playing it a lot cooler, and it seems to be paying dividends – not least in that I feel better about myself again. I know, I know, I need to get off this roller-coaster soon, but I am cool for the time-being. He has been calling me asking why I am so damn busy and what my therapist has been saying about our relationship etc. Quite spitefully, to this I said (which is true in a way) that she had been helping me to deconstruct the myth of our relationship. He sounded a bit panicked – I think he quite likes having me where he wants me – mourning the loss of my true love!

Anyway, he has suggested quite a few things to do (audience in a TV show etc.) over the next couple of months and has been pinning me down to dates. All a bit more promising.