In Praise of Traditional Women

[and_for_what]

While the article was written in such a way that many knee-jerk responses would come about against it, the general idea is quite valid, I feel. I am in my early 20's and women of my age and younger, especially, do seem terribly confused and unhappy about what they're meant to be, and how they're meant to be it. They feel embarassed to be feminine and strive against it, only to quickly crumble under the pressure. It's a very strong current to swim against, but all the media and social forces work to tell women they must think, act and feel like men.

I actually believe this kind of thing is responsible for a great deal of the depression mental problems people have today. Trying to be something you're not, and can't be, is a great strain. The women I know who are genuinely happy people (in private as well as in public) are all quite feminine in behaviour, and tend slightly towards the subservient. So far, every woman I've known who tries to be dominant and manly suffers quite a lot and is all in all a sad person.

A problem is that the terms we use in talking about this are easily misinterpreted, and people start imagining that we mean "the perfect wife" is one chained naked to the bed all day waiting to be ****ed by her abusive husband.

[bluesummer]

No one says you have to be dominant and manly. I just don't like the idea that my 'role' is supposed to be wife, mother, and housemaid. Bullshit. My fiance likes cleaning more than I do, and I happen to LIKE working for a living and don't have much of a desire to be a full time mother. I want kids, yes, but I'd happily go back to work at least part time when I have them. Do I think that makes me a sad, miserable person? No. I'm defining my OWN role as a woman, not society's, and I think that's a lot better.

That said, my fiance wants to take parental leave for six months when we have kids so he can stay home. I suppose that's wrong too, because it's not traditionally a male role? Well that's what he wants. I'm happy with that, because I want to work.

[Mish]

No one says you have to be dominant and manly. I just don't like the idea that my 'role' is supposed to be wife, mother, and housemaid. Bullshit. My fiance likes cleaning more than I do, and I happen to LIKE working for a living and don't have much of a desire to be a full time mother. I want kids, yes, but I'd happily go back to work at least part time when I have them. Do I think that makes me a sad, miserable person? No. I'm defining my OWN role as a woman, not society's, and I think that's a lot better.

That said, my fiance wants to take parental leave for six months when we have kids so he can stay home. I suppose that's wrong too, because it's not traditionally a male role? Well that's what he wants. I'm happy with that, because I want to work.

Blue, what I was talking about has nothing to do with who looks after the kids, it's about a woman feeling okay with being a woman, feeling good in her own skin, with being a mother, with being a wife and with being feminine. I believe it's completely possible for a woman to be comfortable with being female and at the same time divide time with her partner in a such a way that both have shared responsibilities. The real problem as I see it is that a lot of women in the western world have seem to have developed some kind of a role confusion to an extent that they don't feel comfortable with being feminine any more, they don't feel good about interacting with others in a feminine manner, they have lost the feeling of what it takes to create a good dynamic between the masculine and feminine forces, what traditionally inspires men about women. That's the point where I feel sad about the passing of a traditional woman.

[bluesummer]

I'm not sure what you mean, simply because I haven't seen this absence of femininity you speak of. I'm not even sure what 'being feminine' means, beyond dressing the part. Is it a certain attitude, way of speaking, way of conducting yourself? How feminine does one have to be to be considered comfortable in her own skin as a woman?

I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm just curious how other people see this. I don't think a woman who works as a trucker, wears sweatpants all the time, and has no desire for children should be defined as 'less feminine' or 'uncomfortable in her own skin as a woman'. If being that way makes her happy and defines her femininity for her, then that's all she should have to live up to. Maybe I'm missing your point, though.

[Mish]

I'm not sure what you mean, simply because I haven't seen this absence of femininity you speak of. I'm not even sure what 'being feminine' means, beyond dressing the part. Is it a certain attitude, way of speaking, way of conducting yourself? How feminine does one have to be to be considered comfortable in her own skin as a woman?

I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm just curious how other people see this. I don't think a woman who works as a trucker, wears sweatpants all the time, and has no desire for children should be defined as 'less feminine' or 'uncomfortable in her own skin as a woman'. If being that way makes her happy and defines her femininity for her, then that's all she should have to live up to. Maybe I'm missing your point, though.

I'm not going to describe specific differences, but I see a very sharp contrast when I talk to women from other cultures compared to western women. They seem to be happier with embracing their feminine nature, you can see it in how they talk to and how they relate to other people in a more polite, respectful and overall more positive emotional manner. They seem to be more intuitively in tune with men around them, they seem to know how to talk to men in a manner men will understand and they seem to understand men's positive nature and positive potential better than western women. I've also noticed that women coming from more traditional cultures seem to be happier in the world around them, maybe because they see it from a perspective more natural to a woman. Where as a lot of western women see it from a point of view of a victim, quite strange that a woman from a culture where she is given so much feels more victimized and less happy than a woman from a culture that gives her a lot less.

[bluesummer]

You mean, they are happier embracing 'traditional' roles. Of course they are, they were raised from birth that their main purpose in life was to be someone's wife and someone's mother. How can they not be happy when they've achieved the expectations set out for them?

OUR society sets expectation that we have choices about our paths and roles in life. It could be argued that we have so much choice it makes defining ourselves hard, which therefore creates anguish. I would, however, gladly take the freedom to choose my own path (however hard this may be) rather than be told what is expected of me because of my gender.

I know many men who do not fit their traditional 'roles' though, either. I know families where the Dad chooses to stay at home while the Mom has the career and this works for them. We are fortunate in our society we HAVE these choices, and don't have to fit into predetermined moulds.

[Mish]

You mean, they are happier embracing 'traditional' roles. Of course they are, they were raised from birth that their main purpose in life was to be someone's wife and someone's mother. How can they not be happy when they've achieved the expectations set out for them?

OUR society sets expectation that we have choices about our paths and roles in life. It could be argued that we have so much choice it makes defining ourselves hard, which therefore creates anguish. I would, however, gladly take the freedom to choose my own path (however hard this may be) rather than be told what is expected of me because of my gender.

I wouldn't have a problem with that if the women I know actually felt happy, but they do not. They feel confused. Maybe it's because like you said traditional roles have been washed away in the western society and no new roles or at least positive feminine role models had been created. They don't know what the expectations are of women, they don't know how women act, they don't know how to appeal to men's nature, they don't know if men are friends or enemies or how to be happy with all of these choices they had been given. They are walking catastrophes waiting to happen. The main problem that I see is that a lot of western women feel scared about being themselves without being insecure and learning about themselves and skills like awareness, empathy, interpersonal understanding, intuition, heightened senses that women in general have a high grasp of and how to use them in a positive way. And it seems to me that women from traditional backgrounds have a much higher grasp of these because they feel more comfortable developing these skills from the very beginning.

[bluesummer]

It would be a lot easier if people stopped looking for someone else to define who they are, and just go with what they innately feel the urge to be or do.

Why do men have no obligation to the same standards? Ever notice there's very few women complaining about the loss of the traditional male role? We got the shorter end of the stick by stepping out of the traditional role, yet we don't want it back. I wonder why? Men always seem to lament that women just aren't like they used to be, or that other cultures (who live by the same standards we did 50+ years ago) raise their women to be the way they 'should' be. I think you can be non-traditional and still know how to raise good children and have healthy meaningful relationships with men.

I, for one, will never mourn the loss of old-school standards for women OR men.

[Mish]

It would be a lot easier if people stopped looking for someone else to define who they are, and just go with what they innately feel the urge to be or do.

I hear you. But people naturally look for role models as they grow up, it's just a part of being human. People either develop or suppress certain parts of themselves as they interact with their environment (nature vs nurture). Innately a lot of women have the urge to be feminine, but if that urge is discouraged from the very beginning and more masculine behavior is encouraged instead they will not likely put a lot of effort into developing it. It will lie undeveloped and dormant.

Why do men have no obligation to the same standards? Ever notice there's very few women complaining about the loss of the traditional male role? We got the shorter end of the stick by stepping out of the traditional role, yet we don't want it back. I wonder why?

Well, actually some of the women I've spoken to would rather have the positive aspects of traditional men back. Not many women are comfortable with "sensitive new age guys", not many women are comfortable with guys wearing as much make up as them and who try to look prettier than them, who display high levels of feminine behaviour and if this forum has taught me anything women have little patience for men without a spine or emos or nice guys how they are also known.

I think you can be non-traditional and still know how to raise good children and have healthy meaningful relationships with men.

I believe so as well, it's just in the western world I'm hardly seeing it. Something is missing. I feel that women in the west need to rediscover how to be happy with being women again.

[Junket]

Mish, I think you're blowing things out of proportion.

[Mish]

Just saying what I see. There is no other explanation I have why women from more traditional countries act in a lot more feminine way and feel happier doing it than women in the west.

[Disillusioned]

How can men assume what a women, in general, want to be? For that matter how can one woman assume what another woman wants to be. Physiologically they tend to have more in common with each other than with men but that's hardly a basis for accurately guessing a person's desirable career/life choices. It makes no sense. What does make sense to me is that some would ignore examples that don't agree with their opinions to give themselves a confidence boost by helping them feel they have the right answer, to hell with the rest because "father knows best". I don't know about women but I can get somewhat of an idea about A woman if I spend enough time with her. Each one is an individual so what purpose does it serve to expect everyone to fit in the same jacket? Sure you can overthink things but there's a lot of room left before that starts happening.

[and_for_what]

I'm defining my OWN role as a woman, not society's, and I think that's a lot better.

If anything, you're fulfilling the currently fashionable female role that is promoted heavily these days. All of our opinions are shaped by the peopl and influences around us, anyway, so we shouldn't ever think we're being really independant.

I don't think anyone here is making to tell any particular woman how she should live to be happy, but I believe our general observations are right that these days "many women" are quite confused and torn between what they might feel naturally inclined towards, and what is currently socially acceptable. It's not just that women may now, if they want to, pursue a certain kind of man-like life, it's that to do other than that is seen negatively. The pressure is to be manly, work, and not dedicate herself to her children and family in a way that was once common. Talking about doing the opposite is "sexist", which is of course meaningless but it's a "bad" label, a bit like "racist" that can be slapped onto people and will remove all their credibility.


Everyone conforms to the pressures around them, that's just how we are. Well, some conform and others are deformed, perhaps we should say. What's acceptable today wasn't acceptable 50 years ago and won't be acceptable in 50 years time, so we shouldn't put too much weight on things anyway.

[Disillusioned]

[B]It's not just that women may now, if they want to, pursue a certain kind of man-like life, it's that to do other than that is seen negatively.

I think I know what you're trying to say by "man-like" life but would be interested if you could elaborate.

The pressure is to be manly, work, and not dedicate herself to her children and family in a way that was once common.

I don't think there's any pressure on women to be manly, if anything there's a pressure for women to be professionally employed while retaining their percieved femininity. The pressure is still there for her because the man isn't expected to deal with the children as much and THAT is seen as socially acceptable.

Talking about doing the opposite is "sexist", which is of course meaningless

It's not meaningless but some "man-haters" are oversensitive, IMO. They may have a point but they can often be overzealous about it but it depends on context and right now we have none established, unless you consider the OP and I for one consider it patronizing, if not sexist.

it's a "bad" label, a bit like "racist" that can be slapped onto people and will remove all their credibility.

look up white privelege and don't just dismiss it as BS if you want to bring up racism. Racism takes an education and experience to understand. Feminism, for example, is a white centered movement that cares little for equality.

Everyone conforms to the pressures around them, that's just how we are.

Speak loud enough for you limitations and sure enough, they'll be yours. People aren't equal, we are born of different parents and experience different events. Since no one is qualified to judge the value, we're supposed to treat them as equals, providing merit has been satisfied and everyone has different expectations of a person, some more reasonable than others.

Well, some conform and others are deformed, perhaps we should say. What's acceptable today wasn't acceptable 50 years ago and won't be acceptable in 50 years time, so we shouldn't put too much weight on things anyway.

In the 50's you beat your wife, you beat your kids and it was nobody's effing business. I don't agree with this and I think it's the traditionalists, who have patriarchical investment, that are trying to protect their values at the expense of those who's backs they stand on to keep the "innocent spirit" alive.

If a child can't swim and is at risk of drowning, what do you do? You save the child. If that child tries to fight you for helping it because it thinks you're the one trying to drown it you save the child anyway.
Some traditions aren't harmful, others definitely are. Stigma, memes and peer pressure don't make something okay by force of belief. You have to respect equal rights, otherwise you think you're better. If you do indeed think you're better good luck with that. Think critically, don't just blindly follow something and be more critical about it if you believe something due to emotional investment. Acknowledge your bias and you'll be more accurate by considering that bias and how it might affect the attempted objectivity.

[and_for_what]

Disillusioned - I mosty have no idea what you're talking about, or how it relates what I intended to write. I'm long past my days of fruitless internet debates, and I don't think we'd be able to communicate well enough to make it worthwhile, so I'm afraid I don't have a reply.