Michael Moore...Sicko (

[vashti]

Someone should warn Sphinx that Mish will literally argue until the end of time, saying the same old thing 1000 different ways if you let him.

Don't you get it mish? We don't agree with you. That is really all there is to it. Feel free to import our poor if you feel so sorry for them.

[TheSphinx]

Thanks Vashti.

I wouldn't call my last post an orgasm of the mind, but I still felt immediately sleepy and in want of a cigarette after responding.

~Sphinx

[vashti]

I thought it was worth toasting. You bring the cigarettes, I'll bring the liquor.

[Mish]

Make a choice to gain the knowledge I need or do the work I need to advance.

What if you had no means of attaining the knowledge you need or had no means to work to advance?

Well isn't that hell? I can't count the times I've saved up money and then lost it due to sudden home repairs, vehicle maintenance, etc. It's a risk of living, but in answer to this scenario - I would spend every last penny and then get to work on making more pennies right away.

What if you had no previous work experience and thus had no way of making more pennies right away? Have you ever lived on minimum wage in the past?

Yep, but I use all of these, so I have no quarrels. I can vote for officials who will in turn, vote for, create or modify bills which affect the operations of each of the examples you listed.

You use every single police station, postal office, fire department and road in the country? Could it posibly be that you use less than you actually pay in taxes for? Do you feel that you should pay less tax on these commodities knowing this?

I helped put some of the officials who voted for the war in office by voting. I made a choice, and now I am living with the consequences. It's hard to say what sort of attacks (if any) we would be facing here in the United States if we had not responded in such a manner. We'll probably see more as a result of our actions. But I would be pretty upset if I walked cheerfully out of a free hospital visit with a clean bill of health only to get torched in some sort of bombing.

It's evident as opposed to the popular belief at the time of the invasion, Iraq did not pose any clear or present danger to United States of America. No Weapons of mass destruction had been found. The war that you have effectively supported ended up costing you while gaining nothing in return. Many articles on after effects of the war claim that war in Iraq did not provide any additional safety to US citizents and could have resulted in more undeground terrorist activity both at home and overseas. In other words, not only did you not recieve the safety you were hoping for, not only thousands more of US lives were sacrificed (If you read the casualty list), but you as a businessman didn't get any return on your investment which could have provided a free universal healthcare to boost hospitals in your country.

How does that make you feel?

I have no problem with people who have a lot of purchasing power being able to afford things I can't. Life isn't fair and I can live with that. Can you?

I can live with life being unfair, while at the same time trying my best to make it fair. I can make a difference. Can you?

Imagine a privately owned fire department. They will respond damn quick if they want to keep my business. They will have to offer a better service and reasonable price compared to the fire department across the street for me to sign on in the first place.

I can imagine a privately owned fire department that only responds to its customers and no one else. I can imagine you as customer seeing your neighbours house burn down and nobody appearing until after your own house had started burning. I can see a privately owned fire department cut costs and corners to stay "Competative". I can see a privately owned, unregulated fire department driven by profit not responding to even its own customers if it doesn't for one reason or another suit their financial needs.

I also owe a huge "thank you!" to the rich who took the time and energy to dream up, plan and set successful businesses in motion. They provide me with a job!

I agree with that. I have no quarrel with rich people as a class.

And social responsibility?

Don't get me wrong, Mish, I love to volunteer and I will donate money on occasion, but how can a responsibility be altruistic?

~Sphinx

I don't understand your question Sphinx. A responsibility or responsible action can be altruistic and an altruisitc action can be responsbile.

For example, previously mentioned "Medicaid" in US. Health system that provides insurance for the old. Is a socially responsible policy which is also altruistic. Do you believe it's not right that health care of the elderly should be funded by your tax money?

Do you believe that there is a social responsibility? Do you believe for example there is a social responsibility to pay taxes?


Save your cigarette for now, this is going to be a long and interesting conversation when I come back

[Mish]

Someone should warn Sphinx that Mish will literally argue until the end of time, saying the same old thing 1000 different ways if you let him.

I learnt it from you

Don't you get it mish? We don't agree with you. That is really all there is to it. Feel free to import our poor if you feel so sorry for them.

I get it. You don't agree with me because even though you do altruistic acts and do voluntary work deep down inside hides a dark selfishness. One that even if simply given a choice to vote for universal health care would still reject it. One that doesn't care that US hospitals (including your own) get run down because they provide free services without any compensation, one that doesn't care about the plight of poorer people than you (And even resents them for being poor as if they have a choice between being poor or being rich), one that puts personal pride ahead of other people as long as you don't have to pay a little bit extra in taxes. Or as long as noone re-evaluates the current US tax system and diverts the "war funds" towards Health care.

I get it. This is why you disagree. I just want you to admit it

[IndiReloaded]

I get it. You don't agree with me because even though you do altruistic acts and do voluntary work deep down inside hides a dark selfishness. One that even if simply given a choice to vote for universal health care would still reject it.

Tsk Mish, shame on you for even trying this. Even I disagree with this post, tho I am sympathetic to your Cause.

Two things come to mind: one can't give everything to everyone; Vash has made her choice where she wants to do her 'giving'. Its not a choice *I* would have been able to make (nursing makes me gag), does that make ME selfish? I don't think so, I just spend my energy elsewhere.

The other thing is: there are many paths. And the beauty of democracy, which I know you support, is that there are other alternatives to solving a problem. Vash made a very clear statement earlier about how everyone should just work productively and pay their own health insurance. Dunno if that's her Official Voting Position, but I could see how someone might decide to vote for someone who was pro-economy & job creation rather than interested in Universal Health Care.

[Mish]

Two things come to mind: one can't give everything to everyone; Vash has made her choice where she wants to do her 'giving'. Its not a choice *I* would have been able to make (nursing makes me gag), does that make ME selfish? I don't think so, I just spend my energy elsewhere.

The other thing is: there are many paths. And the beauty of democracy, which I know you support, is that there are other alternatives to solving a problem. Vash made a very clear statement earlier about how everyone should just work productively and pay their own health insurance. Dunno if that's her Official Voting Position, but I could see how someone might decide to vote for someone who was pro-economy & job creation rather than interested in Universal Health Care.

I'm just stating the facts Indi. It's posible for a person to be alutristic in one area and yet at the same time be selfish in another. I acknowledged Vash's contributions and I told her that I aplaud her efforts in that regard. However Vash's official voting position is against universal health care. She said she's against paying higher taxes that would improve hospitals in US including the one she works at as well as make the health system in her country fairer for everyone. Not only that, but she also appears to be against any alternative measure of diverting funds from other areas such as war in Iraq to fund universal health care that wouldn't require anyone to pay higher taxes at all.

So Indi, if this is not a display of selfishness then what is it? How do you describe this phenomenon? Please help me understand.

[Junket]

So Indi, if this is not a display of selfishness then what is it? How do you describe this phenomenon? Please help me understand.

It's choice.

You ain't no fúcking angel.

I get it. This is why you disagree. I just want you to admit it

You don't want to understand, you're just looking to get more ammo to use in your argument.

Just stop.

[Mish]

It's choice.

You ain't no fúcking angel.

I know I'm not, and yet even someone as bad as me supports universal health care.

I just don't understand this choice. Support lower tax over hospitals in need of funding? While continuing to support and fund an unnecessary war through tax? I'm being honest, to me it seriously doesn't make any sense. I could understand if there was no choice. If there were no political parties to vote for who could bring this change, but when there are?

[vashti]

You are a fool, mish. I have voted in favor of other plans for providing health insurance to the uninsured. (Prop 72) Your belief that things have to be YOUR way in order to be the RIGHT way is extremely arrogant, and your self-righteousness is obnoxious. I hope you don't carry these traits into your personal life (although I strongly suspect you do).

Anyway, I'm done entertaining you.

[Mish]

Your belief that things have to be YOUR way in order to be the RIGHT way is extremely arrogant, and your self-righteousness is obnoxious. I hope you don't carry these traits into your personal life (although I strongly suspect you do).

Nice, real nice Vash. Very mature. And you wonder why I have so much fun arguing with you

I have voted in favor of other plans for providing health insurance to the uninsured. (Prop 72)

Okay, is this the one?

[url]http://www.smartvoter.org/2004/11/02/ca/state/prop/72/[/url]

It doesn't cover everyone but it's a step in the right direction. You did the right thing Vash, I'm proud of you. Though does this only apply in California? Would you vote for this on National level?

You know, you could've saved yourself a lot of reading if you posted this from the beginning.

[vashti]

Do you really think I give a shit if you are proud of me, you condescending, sanctimonious fool?

For the record, I DID state that I favored employer-provided insurance pages back, but you were so busy listening to yourself talk, you must have missed it.

[misombra]

i say we just let mish keep hanging himself with his own words. he's pretty good at it.

[TheSphinx]

What if you had no means of attaining the knowledge you need or had no means to work to advance?

I wouldn't be living in America.

What if you had no previous work experience and thus had no way of making more pennies right away? Have you ever lived on minimum wage in the past?

Yep. That's how I arrived at my current situation. How does your first question make any sense? You can't get a job because of no work experience? That's like when this woman told me the other day, "Sorry honey, we don't take checks unless you've written one to us before."

You use every single police station, postal office, fire department and road in the country? Could it posibly be that you use less than you actually pay in taxes for? Do you feel that you should pay less tax on these commodities knowing this?

These are funded primarily by local and state taxes. As for the extra I pay to the federal government, I have no problem as I travel very frequently (by road) and use such services in other areas.

It's evident as opposed to the popular belief at the time of the invasion, Iraq did not pose any clear or present danger to United States of America...Many articles on after effects of the war claim that war in Iraq did not provide any additional safety to US citizents and could have resulted in more undeground terrorist activity both at home and overseas. In other words, not only did you not recieve the safety you were hoping for, not only thousands more of US lives were sacrificed (If you read the casualty list), but you as a businessman didn't get any return on your investment which could have provided a free universal healthcare to boost hospitals in your country.

How does that make you feel?

I feel fine. Being a soldier is a job here in the U.S., and the job description entails the possibility of getting killed. Maybe I would oppose such if it were a draft or mandated service, but it's not as of now. Our soldiers are compensated for the risk they knowingly take when signing up.

You want to know why I think we invaded, Mish?

That bastard Saddam wouldn't melt down a few of his gold palaces so the country could have free health care.

See? He was a bad guy anyway. Doesn't that make our war altruistic?

I can make a difference. Can you?

Yes, but where I want to make a difference, not where a government tells me I have to.

I can imagine a privately owned fire department that only responds to its customers and no one else. I can imagine you as customer seeing your neighbours house burn down and nobody appearing until after your own house had started burning. I can see a privately owned fire department cut costs and corners to stay "Competative". I can see a privately owned, unregulated fire department driven by profit not responding to even its own customers if it doesn't for one reason or another suit their financial needs.

Funny, I've witnessed each of these examples with a public fire department.

I don't understand your question Sphinx. A responsibility or responsible action can be altruistic and an altruisitc action can be responsbile.

For example, previously mentioned "Medicaid" in US. Health system that provides insurance for the old. Is a socially responsible policy which is also altruistic. Do you believe it's not right that health care of the elderly should be funded by your tax money?

Do you believe that there is a social responsibility? Do you believe for example there is a social responsibility to pay taxes?

I have no say in the life of the person up until he reaches the "elderly" stage, therefore, no.

Altruistic- unselfishly concerned for or devoted to the welfare of others (opposed to egoistic). Synonyms- charitable, generous, philanthropic; benevolent, unselfish.

How is a responsibility, an expected (forced) payment into this system, being altruistic?

You don't agree with me because even though you do altruistic acts and do voluntary work deep down inside hides a dark selfishness.

It must be "dark selfishness" that keeps you from peddling your computer and other worldly possessions, giving the money away, and wandering the streets of the U.S., tending the uninsured poor who desperately need it.

It's selfishness Mish. One that even if simply given a choice to donate your possessions and get up and take to the streets, one would still reject it. One that doesn't care that poor people need the help of your personal free services without any compensation, one that doesn't really care about the plight of poorer people than you (aside from writing about what other people should do), one that puts personal pride on an internet forum ahead of other people as long as you don't have to take the little effort to get out of materialism and hit the streets.

What's that? You can't see helping out in such a way? You already donate money and time? You know, you're right. We should vote this idea in. If all citizens sell out and join you in aiding the poor on the streets, the burden you have will be a lot less. Wait a second...voting on something to ease your burden? My selfishness sense is tingling!

Second paragraph look familiar? It should...

One that even if simply given a choice to vote for universal health care would still reject it. One that doesn't care that US hospitals (including your own) get run down because they provide free services without any compensation, one that doesn't care about the plight of poorer people than you (And even resents them for being poor as if they have a choice between being poor or being rich), one that puts personal pride ahead of other people as long as you don't have to pay a little bit extra in taxes.

Allow me to borrow and slightly modify another.

So Mish, if this is not a display of selfishness then what is it? How do you describe this phenomenon? Please help me understand.

~Sphinx

[Kiechi]

OH MY GOD


OHHHHHH MY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

YOU INFECTED DA INTERWEBS WITH AIDS





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