Connecticut Shooting Leaves 28 Dead, Including 20 Pupils

[IndiReloaded]

Steviej - The fact is, guns are weapons. A weapon is defined as:

a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage

This is not true of all tools (such as spoons, that was a terrible example). Anything that is *specifically designed* as a weapon should be regulated. Hell, we require an exam and registration for people to drive a car (which some might define as a 2000lb weapon), I don't think its asking too much to ask the same for a gun and for some types to be more heavily regulated than others. Unless you think its okay for your neighbour to have an ICBM in his backyard if s/he wants, in which case we have no basis for a meeting of minds on this topic.

Here are some more reputable (peer reviewed) statistics on gun use and violence than that biased website you quoted. Read them and then come back with your intelligent rebuttal (if you have one):

Individuals in a firearm owning home are close to five times more likely to commit suicide than those individuals who do not own firearms.
Kellermann, AL, Rivara FP, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM 327:7 (1992):467-472.
fyi - NEJM = New England Journal of Medicine, one of the top peer reviewed journals in the world.

The UN found that firearms are used for ~60% of all homicides (more than knives, which I believe was a previous argument of yours).
United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime. "Global Burden of Armed Violence"
http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/Crime-statistics/Chapter4-Global-Burden-of-Armed-Violence-report.pdf

The United States has the highest rate of gun related injuries (not deaths per capita) among developed countries, though they also have the highest rate of gun ownership and highest rate of officers.
Cook, Philip J., Gun Violence: The Real Cost, Page 29. Oxford University Press, 2002

I'm not against guns, per se, but I do think that since they are specifically designed as a weapon they should be regulated.

[steviej]

I'll disagree slightly that guns are weapons. Firearms can be weapons, as your definition pointed out, it's the use which makes an object a weapon. A spoon can most certainly be a weapon, as can any other household object!

Pedantic aside, I have never said I disagree with firearm regulation, I gave my views on it earlier that in America I think gun registration should be compulsory, a licence is required for ownership and that licence is dependent upon doctors reports, police background checks etc (similar to what we have in the UK) and these are reviewed at regular intervals.

It is frustrating when people who don't understand what they are talking about decide to implement restrictions. Remember the 'barrel shroud' ban? I saw a news report of this person who'd got them banned in the states, she couldn't even explain what one was yet campaigned to have it banned. (here it is!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rGpykAX1fo

Oh, i don't disagree that website was biased, but the stories about self defence were genuine enough which was the only point i was making - how would those people have faired without a firearm.

I can't comment on what has been found in that journal as I haven't read it. It would be interesting to see it's findings though.

The UN documentation - 60% of all homicides... that's taken from countries all over the world including places almost lawless like certain places in south africa, places in south america etc. It even states the lowest is 19%, highest 77%. So I don't see what exactly your point is? That lawless places with no gun control have a high murder rate with firearms...?

In the UK figures are somewhere around 3,000 people killed a year by knives, approximately 50 by guns. My point was that the tool to commit the crime might change, but the crime will still be committed. It's the person, not the tool that is the problem.

Your last point about the highest rate of gun related injuries - but what context? Were those injuries from home defence, accidental wounding, trapping your finger in part of the gun mechanism, shooting at a range and recoil spraining your wrist...?

But yes I agree, regulation is needed and it needs to be done by experts in firearms, not slimy politicians looking to score points with voters by throwing around slogans and marching on some crusade in the name of children when really it's just to advance their own political and financial agenda. (see vid above!)

[IndiReloaded]

I'll disagree slightly that guns are weapons. Firearms can be weapons, as your definition pointed out, it's the use which makes an object a weapon. A spoon can most certainly be a weapon, as can any other household object!

Here is one accepted definition of a gun btw:

A gun is a weapon designed to discharge a projectile.

And of course a gun is a weapon. It was *designed* as such. What is the history of a gun? Quite different from a spoon.

The UN documentation - 60% of all homicides... that's taken from countries all over the world including places almost lawless like certain places in south africa, places in south america etc. It even states the lowest is 19%, highest 77%. So I don't see what exactly your point is? That lawless places with no gun control have a high murder rate with firearms...?

Yes. So, in the hands of the uncontrolled, that is what a gun becomes. Again, not a spoon.

In the UK figures are somewhere around 3,000 people killed a year by knives, approximately 50 by guns. My point was that the tool to commit the crime might change, but the crime will still be committed. It's the person, not the tool that is the problem.

No, the correct statistic is to show me the number of people attacked by a gun firing vs. stabbing with a knife (or a spoon for the far extreme left) and show me the mortality rates. Guns will be *much* higher... because that's what they are designed for.

Your last point about the highest rate of gun related injuries - but what context? Were those injuries from home defence, accidental wounding, trapping your finger in part of the gun mechanism, shooting at a range and recoil spraining your wrist...?

Again, what difference does it make? A gun injury is still an injury and much more serious than those from--yep, a knife (or spoon)--per incident.

But yes I agree, regulation is needed and it needs to be done by experts in firearms, not slimy politicians looking to score points with voters by throwing around slogans and marching on some crusade in the name of children when really it's just to advance their own political and financial agenda.

Not sure what you mean by "done". Laws are passed by lawmakers, the politicians we vote for. But yes, the regulation needs to be *informed* by all stakeholders--those opposing guns as well as those pro-gun. The parents of those kids definitely get a say.

[haxan]

in America I think gun registration should be compulsory, a licence is required for ownership and that licence is dependent upon doctors reports, police background checks etc (similar to what we have in the UK) and these are reviewed at regular intervals.

I don't know if there's a perfect solution, but I'll agree with this ^ as a decent starting point. The fact that local gun shows, held weekly across the country, are laden with thugs and sociopaths who can buy any and everything they want with no inquiry or limitations is bad news for society.

[AdminOnline]

victims of the connecticut shootout



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[Wakeup]

We have plenty of shootings, almost all by scum having gang war with each other with innocents in the middle or robberies/muggings and the occasional random act of killing for no reason. There has been a couple of high profile cases where a legally owned firearm was used in self defence where burglars broke into someones house and the homeowner shot them. In my opinion this should be a legitimate reason for owning guns.

I didn’t mean to imply that you have no crime whatsoever. We have gun crimes here as well in fact the gang bangers are killing each other while all too often taking out an innocent bystander but nothing like what has been happening in the US with their laxidasical rules and lack of regulations

You have strict gun laws and restriction as we do here in Canada. We do not seem to have this fear Americans have of being overrun by criminals or being taken over by their own Government. That argument is eye-roll worthy. Especially now after what’s just happened.

We have a ridiculously high issue with knife crime as well. It's not the tool, it's the person behind it that's the problem.

Time to make it harder for the perons to get access to the tools in the US of A.

[Love'sReject]

We do not seem to have this fear Americans have of being overrun by criminals or being taken over by their own Government. That argument is eye-roll worthy. Especially now after what’s just happened.

Complete win. Most 'Murricans think one day we're going to organize into one huge militia and have to defend ourselves against the government. Yeah, like a bunch of fat citizens are really going to shoot members of the government (it's lulzworthy they even think a scenario where gun-backed revolution will even be necessary in this cunt-ry).

[haxan]

Did you ever notice that it's the gun nut doomsday prepper survivalists who are the most genetically challenged? They're the one's that we could actually spare and make the world a better place.

[Love'sReject]

That's the kind of thinking that allowed the Holocaust to happen.

[Love'sReject]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/indiana-man-arrested-threatening-shoot-school-article-1.1221531

Man with 47 guns and a collection worth over 100k was about to shoot up an elementary school after setting his wife on fire.

The guns were mostly collector's items, i.e. LEGAL guns. I just totally think people in mental asylums should have the right to bear arms. I mean that SO sincerely *sarcasm*

[misombra]

oh lookee here. the good ol gun debate.

disarming the masses is the ticket to tyranny.

very sad about what happened. but it would be even more sad and horrible if we were disarmed and military rule were to take over.

[Love'sReject]

Military rule is just paranoia to an extreme. That would NEVER happen here in the U.S. You think giving guns to civilians to kill each other prevents a military dictatorship? the conditions don't exist in this country for one to happen, even if we disarmed the populace.

[frampt2]

The problem is that it's too easy to get a gun. There's virtually no requirements. I bet this is not the only socially awkward kid with psychological problems that has easy acces to guns. These quiet types of guys are dangerous because noone thinks of them as a problem until they completely snap. A horrible thing happened and I'm afraid it won't be the last time either. The gun rules must be revisioned.

[misombra]

The problem is that it's too easy to get a gun. There's virtually no requirements. I bet this is not the only socially awkward kid with psychological problems that has easy acces to guns. These quiet types of guys are dangerous because noone thinks of them as a problem until they completely snap. A horrible thing happened and I'm afraid it won't be the last time either. The gun rules must be revisioned.

"requirements" will not keep criminals from getting guns.

[Love'sReject]

"requirements" will not keep criminals from getting guns.

A lot of criminals are regular citizens during the day. School shootings have almost invariably been in middle-class areas and the middle class folk are highly unlikely to go so far as buying on the black market just for a gun to 'defend' themselves.