From the BBC : Seven die in California university shooting

[sadie_genie]

That's a bunch of bull.

Everyone knows its true. Although some Americans don't like to admit to it. America is a bundle of hypocrisy. Americans praise themselves as the champions of democracy and human rights but at the same time, they will spend billions on wars to take on arms oversea to pillage and loot villages and kill innocent lives. The media in America disseminate these values (here, I am talking about its militancy, violence, and lack of toleration of cultural and religious diversity) to its citizens. They don't realize that what they do oversea rot them from within.

[DoesntMatter]

Come on Sadie! Our media shoves diversity and their liberal bullshit down our throats at every turn!

[asdfg789]

Wrong. I can guarantee that if I went into a crowd with the knife of my choice and the intention to commit multiple murders, my body count'd be much higher than merely six. Guns (thanks to movies) give a false sense of god-like power. We "know" that if you shoot someone, they die, usually instantly. Due to this, poorly trained individuals with a firearm do less damage than they think they will.

It's statistically demonstrable that states with liberal gun control laws have lower crime rates. Guns are so prevalent in our society that outlawing them will have zero effect on the criminal population - they're law breakers by definition. The only effect you'll have is to take defensive weaponry out of the hands of those that obey the law.

you must be special forces trained. for the average person, it is equally difficult, if not more so, to inflict serious damage with a knife then a gun. there is also the fear factor - more people will be willing to come forward to try to disarm someone with a knife, not a gun; hence less damage.

so you keep a gun to fight the criminals who carry them ? how about your wife and children ? do they carry one too ? or are you always by their side to protect them with your gun ? what are the chances that they will be killed by some gun carrying lunatic as per the bbc story ? why do i feel safer putting my kids in school in almost any other major city in the world (including norway) than I would in the US ?

[asdfg789]

Why's it got to be important to him to justify himself to you?

he doesn't have to. i sincerely want to understand why americans are still clinging onto their guns.

[asdfg789]

How me or anyone else "feels" about gun ownership is irrelevant. The founders of my country thought it was important enough to be guaranteed in our Constitution and that is that.

If you want to change gun ownership rights in America, then change the Constitution

the only constant is change. what was right when the country was founded, doesn't have to be right now.
does it make sense to blindly follow something laid down a couple of hundred years ago when the situation was clearly different ?

[sadie_genie]

Come on Sadie! Our media shoves diversity and their liberal bullshit down our throats at every turn!

Obviously hasn't done a good job judging by how Islam is conflated with evil.

[DoesntMatter]

why do i feel safer putting my kids in school in almost any other major city in the world (including norway) than I would in the US ?

Because American cities are filled with gang-banging degenerate minorities. Not that you would understand, aren't you from South Korea, one of the most homogeneous societies on Earth?

btw, Oslo now has a crime rate like 3x higher than NYC thanks to their lax immigration policies allowing non-European immigration. I'd feel safer in NYC and rightfully so.

the only constant is change. what was right when the country was founded, doesn't have to be right now.
does it make sense to blindly follow something laid down a couple of hundred years ago when the situation was clearly different ?

If you and the others wanting to ban guns believe gun ownership is outdated then try following the letter of the law and get a Constitutional ammendment.

Make guns illegal within the framework of the law. Go for it, I'd have a lot less problems if you did that, instead of what you are trying to do now, which is deliberately twist around the meaning of words like "infringe" to fit your need to ban guns

btw when are you going to start bitching about Swiss gun ownership? Basically every able bodied Swiss male is required by law to own an automatic assault rifle.

I personally own guns for self-defense, and no person has the right to deny me that, not here anyway

[DoesntMatter]

Obviously hasn't done a good job judging by how Islam is conflated with evil.

WHAT? Our media praises Islam as the religion of peace... when was the last time you watched NBC Nightly news, or CBS, or ABC, or CNN, or MSNBC????>

[asdfg789]

Because American cities are filled with gang-banging degenerate minorities. Not that you would understand, aren't you from South Korea, one of the most homogeneous societies on Earth?

btw, Oslo now has a crime rate like 3x higher than NYC thanks to their lax immigration policies allowing non-European immigration. I'd feel safer in NYC and rightfully so.

If you and the others wanting to ban guns believe gun ownership is outdated then try following the letter of the law and get a Constitutional ammendment.

Make guns illegal within the framework of the law. Go for it, I'd have a lot less problems if you did that, instead of what you are trying to do now, which is deliberately twist around the meaning of words like "infringe" to fit your need to ban guns

btw when are you going to start bitching about Swiss gun ownership? Basically every able bodied Swiss male is required by law to own an automatic assault rifle.

I personally own guns for self-defense, and no person has the right to deny me that, not here anyway

ok. so you have a problem with minorities in your cities and you feel that owning a gun makes it safer.
i'm just wondering if that is a real solution or does it actually end up in an arms race with ever more lethal weapons.
and then there are these fatal side effects of the school shootings.

i'm not american so i have no say on your laws. but yes, i am hoping that americans will change it from a legal standpoint. when did i twist any word or say "infringe" ?

i dont bitch about any other country because we rarely see these mass shooting cases with the same frequency like we see in America.
not sure why. be very interested to know. (:

[DoesntMatter]

ok. so you have a problem with minorities in your cities and you feel that owning a gun makes it safer..

No I do not have a problem with minorities in the city; this is a non-sequitur from our discussion about safety in cities.

I live in the suburbs but the city culture and demographics are expanding and creeping into what were once safe areas. Gun ownership helps in protecting our property against home invasions

i'm not american so i have no say on your laws. but yes, i am hoping that americans will change it from a legal standpoint. what did i twist any word or say "infringe"

You didn't, but our lawmakers and judges do all the time

i dont bitch about any other country because we rarely see these mass shooting cases with the same frequency like we see in America.
not sure why. be very interested to know. (:

I am skeptical mass shootings occur so much more in the US than other countries. Of course I haven't seen an analysis of this. The US has over 300 million people. In Europe, there was the Norway shooter, the Belgian guy shooter who even used grenades in his attack, two school shootings in Finland, and several in Germany, all in recent memory.

Also:

MEXICO

Guns are virtually illegal in Mexico, yet about 50,000 people have been murdered since 2006 in their drug war. There are mass shootings there almost every day. I don't need to do a number crunch to see that mass shootings occur there FAR more frequently than in the US, probably at least 1,000 times more frequent

[asdfg789]

I am skeptical mass shootings occur so much more in the US than other countries. Of course I haven't seen an analysis of this. The US has over 300 million people. In Europe, there was the Norway shooter, the Belgian guy shooter who even used grenades in his attack, two school shootings in Finland, and several in Germany, all in recent memory.

Also:

MEXICO

Guns are virtually illegal in Mexico, yet about 50,000 people have been murdered since 2006 in their drug war. There are mass shootings there almost every day. I don't need to do a number crunch to see that mass shootings occur there FAR more frequently than in the US, probably at least 1,000 times more frequent

Re: mexico : in places where there is general lawlessness and law enforcement has limited effectiveness, it may actually makes sense to legalize guns. same as during America's early years. i'm not against guns per se. you can see it in my avatar (: .

but i question if the comfort feeling you get from owning a gun in America is actually rational or is it something that the gun lobby (funded by parties with vested interests naturally) continues to cultivate with an eye on their $$.

[DoesntMatter]

General lawlessness defines American cities

It would still stand that a gun is valuable for home defense and when the police cannot help you (i.e. post hurricane katrina, many neighborhood watch groups spontaneouly popped up to prevent the looting that was going on in nearby city areas)

Also, it is sad that this country even needs a gun lobby. If judges did their job and applied the Constitution as it is written, there would be no need for a gun lobby

[Mish]

MEXICO

Guns are virtually illegal in Mexico, yet about 50,000 people have been murdered since 2006 in their drug war. There are mass shootings there almost every day. I don't need to do a number crunch to see that mass shootings occur there FAR more frequently than in the US, probably at least 1,000 times more frequent

I always thought that Mexican drug wars exist because they are fighting each other for the lucrative US drug market, Mexico controls 90% the drugs that enter US, it doesn't matter how strict the gun controls are when you can make so much money for so little. If you are really interested about countries where gun restrictions have worked have a look at Australia, there are lots of immigrants in Australian cities and the crime level has generally gone down since the gun restrictions were introduced. It can work quite well.

[DoesntMatter]

I always thought that Mexican drug wars exist because they are fighting each other for the lucrative US drug market, Mexico controls 90% the drugs that enter US, it doesn't matter how strict the gun controls are when you can make so much money for so little.

Exactly, gun 'control' won't solve the problem because it doesn't address the root of the problem

If you are really interested about countries where gun restrictions have worked have a look at Australia, there are lots of immigrants in Australian cities and the crime level has generally gone down since the gun restrictions were introduced. It can work quite well.

Yeah, because Australia doesn't have blacks and Hispanics like the US does. They are responsible for like 80% of the shootings in the US

[sadie_genie]

The right to firearm was written in the American constitution so white slave owners can keep their black slaves in their places. Today, White Americans still need the gun in the same sense.