Why guys always stand me up or stop returning my messages?

[Elvirah]

How many botched dates are we speaking here? How many of each?

Erm we're talking about 9 times... okay, now I know the problem is how I meet them and how quickly it all happens. Good, like a healthy slap across the face.

I'm surprised about the language problem though. In Europe most people speak at least two languages (except of course the big states like France, Germany and the UK). I speak 4, but it rarely comes up in a conversation.

Language seems to be a real problem sometimes. Let me explain, it's not as if I was from Flanders and spoke Dutch, French, and English. Now, for the sake of argument, imagine a German who goes to Spanish-speaking counties to research on Cervantes and teach the locals their own linguistics and literature... Yes, however passionate, that one will end up pissing off a few people.

Maybe you talk a bit too much about yourself.

I certainly do! I talk an awful lot about myself in an attempt to fill the silence, because I'm scared to death someone I fancy might get bored with me. Is it better to let him find conversation topics he's comfortable with? You'e right to talk about adjustment I think, as an ex-shy (think asocial for most of my childhood and teenage years), I am still extremely awkward with people my age, so I over-compensate with assumed self-confidence. Needless to repeat how it has failed me so far. And as an ex-ugly duckling I am amazed, even grateful, when a guy finds me attractive enough. Obviously, every time I get stood up my level of self-esteem sinks and I become an easier prey. Vicious circle all over again. Damn! It's not a forum but a psycho-analysis I need, or what?

Thanks a lot for your advice, I'm about to move once more where no-one knows me, so I have the chance to do things differently this time!

[Jolicoeur]

imagine a German who goes to Spanish-speaking counties to research on Cervantes and teach the locals their own linguistics and literature... Yes, however passionate, that one will end up pissing off a few people.

LOL! Well, I worked a couple of years in Ford Werke in Koln and Saarlouis, where among things I had to train the locals to use their own installations, for which I had to quickly learn german. :-)

Here is some advice from Cervantes for you:

"Every man is as heaven made him, and sometimes a great deal worse."

"That which costs little is less valued."

I talk an awful lot about myself in an attempt to fill the silence, because I'm scared to death someone I fancy might get bored with me. Is it better to let him find conversation topics he's comfortable with?

That's exactly what I'm afraid of too. Not only on dates, but even among friends. Sometimes if I don't talk, nobody talks, and the party just dies. Sometimes when I consciously deside not to talk too much, people ask me if I'm alright; why I am so quiet. (That gets on my system so much :-)

I think on dates you'd better ask questions about the other person. Most people like to answer questions about themselves. Don't ask too personal ones though, like past girlfriends. More like what countries he travelled to and what cars he's had. Somehow we men like to talk about our cars. :-)

When I ask questions like that, I make a rule not to talk about my similar preferences unless specifically asked back. It prevents me from dominating the conversation about myself.The drawback is that you often discover quickly how self-centered people really are. You're rarely asked questions back.

You'e right to talk about adjustment I think, as an ex-shy (...), I am still extremely awkward with people my age, so I over-compensate with assumed self-confidence.

Don't do that too much. Occasional shy-ness can be very cute.

It's not a forum but a psycho-analysis I need, or what?

Self-analysis sometimes works just as well. But don't beat yourself up too much. I don't think you failed any of those dates. You discovered that those guys were not right for you. Maybe the cost was high (if you don't like one-night stands). But believe me, nice guys do exist. And it's much easier for a woman to find a nice guy, than it is for a nice guy to find a woman.

[CAM]

Indeed... When he discovers it little by little is a guy likely to be more comfortable with it? I used to put it all out there so that we won't lose our time if he's got a problem with who I am. Of course it didn't work, and oh does he have a problem with that!



My mistake, I don't see sex as the conclusion of the seduction game, but just another domain in which to try our compatibilty, like a philosophical conversation or a hike together. In fact, sleeping with someone relieves the sexual tension between us and actually allows me to start having feelings... I know I have to change, but I ask what's the matter with me I get mixed replies: once I'm not needy enough, and another time I'm too present. Life isn't an American sitcom (SATC and the likes), it would be ridiculous to call because I've waited the "right" amount of time since his call instead of just because I feel like it... wouldn't it?
Oh I'm just too French when it comes to that, too spontaneous, but French guys don't interest me. I'm probably bringing it all upon myself then.

Thank you!

Well, my current gf is of the same philosophy. She is very much the director of things, regardless of my efforts to plan events for us to attend. She always comes up with something to do. That includes sex. She is very much the instigator. I guess some would say, "Lucky bastard" to me, but I would not totally agree with that. It is a bit too much and not so much fun when a man is getting chased by a woman. And, she has sort of drawn a line in the sand, too. Namely, I need to overcome feelings of reticence about moving rapidly into sex OR she doesn't see a future for us. I'm beginning to see a future for us...that is, no future.

I guess the point of telling you this is that you should probably just relax about things a bit, be less intense, be a little less the "professional-powerhouse-to-be" and you'll be more approachable.

[CAM]

BTW: I should add...I did all the sex stuff. I just expressed feelings of reticence and that was apparently not acceptable. (i.e., Enjoyable Yourself or Get Help! It Is An Order!)

[IndiReloaded]

Like it or not, there is a double-standard regarding sex for men and women. It has nothing to do with your intellect, except you should be able to use it to figure this out. I will say when I was younger (and dating, now I'm married) I never entertained the guys who I thought might be the sort to do what you describe. I also never slept around or early in a relationship (yes, I actually had to be in a relationship to even consider sex). Times are different now as far as the social scene I gather, but I think that there are still men who value a woman who doesn't give it up too easily. I mean, in your case especially, whats the rush? Its not like its all you have going for you--I'm sure you are very interesting, can make great conversation and have cool experiences to share. If a guy can't appreciate that about you, then why would you ever want to sleep with him?

[IndiReloaded]

The spouses or serious significant others have to put up with a lot of crap because our lives (yours and mine) are not 9 to 5 in any way. By Saturday, I'm a drooling idiot sitting at the breakfast table at home. By Sunday evening, I'm mentally re-adjusted...just in time for Monday morning.

Hahahahaha.... (pause for breath)... hahahahaha. Professor fessus, I recognize this species, CAM.

I probably got the declension wrong, hopefully someone can correct (how many phds does it take... jokes come to mind).

[KelE]

Thank you both!

Then why don't they tell me straight away they're not interested? This silence, this indifference, it hurts a lot more than blunt honesty...

The answer to this part is to protect yourself and not worry about WHY they do this. Make sure that you feel comfortable with there integrity and the attachment that you have before you let them in. If they don't stick around and you are not invested emotionally it will not hurt as bad. Let them prove themselves to you a little more first. If they don't stick around till you are comfortable, then good riddance. You will still be taking a risk when you get involved more deeply but it will be more calculated and you won't have so many let downs.

[Elvirah]

But believe me, nice guys do exist. And it's much easier for a woman to find a nice guy, than it is for a nice guy to find a woman.

My, I hope you're right! Where are they hiding?

If a guy can't appreciate that about you, then why would you ever want to sleep with him?

Well... I don't know, why not just because I want to? Sex isn't a reward from woman to man, it is something we both want, take, and enjoy together. But that's another debate

Thank you all a million times, now I've got a lot to work on!

[MaidenMinx]

It sounds to me like you are giving up your mystery too soon. My great-grandmother used to tell me that a womans greatest asset is her mystery and once it's gone it can't be gotten back. I understand about getting it all out there, I think this is what intense people do to try and weed out the people that cannot handle the intensity (possibly taking a page from Marilyn Monroe with her 'if you can't handle me at my worst you don't deserve me at my best'. Not saying intense is bad, it can just be overwhelming), the problem with that approach is you are putting your assets and your flaws all out there on a platter right from the beginning meaning your flaws and assets are there for equal viewing. There is an honesty in this approach that has to be admired but the fact of the matter is no one is going to accept flaws unless they completely believe the assets outweigh them. Jeez, the average person takes up to a year to fart infront of the person they are dating for fear of the other person thinking they are disgusting. Unfortunately, we are programmed to respond to this mildly deceptive dance to start off the attraction. I'm not saying you EVER lie about yourself, but it is common subconscious behaviour to present yourself in the most flattering light. As you've already been told your most flattering light may be intimidating. Just avoid giving away too much too soon.

[CAM]

Like it or not, there is a double-standard regarding sex for men and women. It has nothing to do with your intellect, except you should be able to use it to figure this out. I will say when I was younger (and dating, now I'm married) I never entertained the guys who I thought might be the sort to do what you describe. I also never slept around or early in a relationship (yes, I actually had to be in a relationship to even consider sex). Times are different now as far as the social scene I gather, but I think that there are still men who value a woman who doesn't give it up too easily. I mean, in your case especially, whats the rush? Its not like its all you have going for you--I'm sure you are very interesting, can make great conversation and have cool experiences to share. If a guy can't appreciate that about you, then why would you ever want to sleep with him?

But believe me, nice guys do exist. And it's much easier for a woman to find a nice guy, than it is for a nice guy to find a woman.

I totally agree with both of you. Indi's right--What's the rush? I see this in my own relationship (the current one and in past ones). I am not overly sexual, but I get talked into sex by women who say much the same as the OP say later in the thread--namely, that they like sex and want to share that with me. But, the fact is that women are not men when it comes to sex and emotional ties. A woman isn't likely to *just enjoy* casual sex...she forms an emotional bond to the guy. I don't think that is fair to your male partners. If you lead him into sex and then form an emotional attachment that he is now supposed to honor...is that fair to him? Guys will run from this, particularly nice guys.

And Jolicoeur--I agree again! Nice guys exist. It is hard for nice guys to meet nice women, though. Nice guys can easily fall into the snare of not-so-nice or aggressive women. Nice women can often fall into the snares of men who are jerks.

[Jolicoeur]

Where are they hiding?

The label nice guy is not something positive.

A nice guy has high morals, is quite sensitive, respectful and well-mannered. He does not work the dating market the way nature intended it. Instead of fluttering from flower to flower like a butterfly, he targets one particular girl and courts her for a long while. Of course this almost always fails, but the nice guy has trouble letting go of his often mentally idealised target of affection. Rejection is answered with confusion and misunderstanding. After lots of rejections, the nice guy can metamorphose into the bitter loner.

I am a specimen of this sad life form, so I've had some experience analysing my own modus operandum. I've been quite bitter for two decades after some particular nasty rejections in high school. I've grown out of it, realising after all those years that the rejecting girl does not control her feelings any more than the nice guy does. (She does however control her actions, but I don't want to drag this into the analysis of the evil bitch, another life-form in the love eco-system).

If you can get a nice guy to love you, you have a mate for life. He's been hurt so often that he'll never want to inflict this suffering onto someone else. Sometimes however he might carry some baggage from previous botched courtships.

How does one recognise a nice guy? They are rarely handsome. (Handome guys have easy pickings on the dating flower beds). The nice guy acts a bit corny: he holds doors for women, proposes to help out more than he should, apologises a bit too often. Mothers like nice guys a lot. They always wish their daughters find one. This, I can tell you, is particularly frustrating.

The reason why girls are not attracted to nice guys is because they emanate some vibe of desperation. I've never understood this. It is very counter-intuitive since nearly all love stories are about some nice guy exerting substantial effort to court a love interest. To me it seems like the more I show a girl I care, the less she wants me. (It's this observation that lead to the development of the highly succesful pick-up artistry).

I think that the nice guy who succesfully connects to his coveted girl, at least for a few years lives in absolute bliss. I have yet to reach that stadium. For almost three years now I've been hoping to ask the most perfect girl this side of Constantinople out on a date. I have to wait because the odds are terribly against me. They might however never improve. Do you notice the absurdity of this situation?

[CAM]

The label nice guy is not something positive.

A nice guy has high morals, is quite sensitive, respectful and well-mannered. He does not work the dating market the way nature intended it. Instead of fluttering from flower to flower like a butterfly, he targets one particular girl and courts her for a long while. Of course this almost always fails, but the nice guy has trouble letting go of his often mentally idealised target of affection. Rejection is answered with confusion and misunderstanding. After lots of rejections, the nice guy can metamorphose into the bitter loner.

I am a specimen of this sad life form, so I've had some experience analysing my own modus operandum. I've been quite bitter for two decades after some particular nasty rejections in high school. I've grown out of it, realising after all those years that the rejecting girl does not control her feelings any more than the nice guy does. (She does however control her actions, but I don't want to drag this into the analysis of the evil bitch, another life-form in the love eco-system).

If you can get a nice guy to love you, you have a mate for life. He's been hurt so often that he'll never want to inflict this suffering onto someone else. Sometimes however he might carry some baggage from previous botched courtships.

How does one recognise a nice guy? They are rarely handsome. (Handome guys have easy pickings on the dating flower beds). The nice guy acts a bit corny: he holds doors for women, proposes to help out more than he should, apologises a bit too often. Mothers like nice guys a lot. They always wish their daughters find one. This, I can tell you, is particularly frustrating.

The reason why girls are not attracted to nice guys is because they emanate some vibe of desperation. I've never understood this. It is very counter-intuitive since nearly all love stories are about some nice guy exerting substantial effort to court a love interest. To me it seems like the more I show a girl I care, the less she wants me. (It's this observation that lead to the development of the highly succesful pick-up artistry).

I think that the nice guy who succesfully connects to his coveted girl, at least for a few years lives in absolute bliss. I have yet to reach that stadium. For almost three years now I've been hoping to ask the most perfect girl this side of Constantinople out on a date. I have to wait because the odds are terribly against me. They might however never improve. Do you notice the absurdity of this situation?

You have summarized it perfectly. I am also a "nice guy" and becoming a loner is a real thing. I have a gf at the moment. She's obviously not "the one" because I still prefer to be alone than with her. The sex is something that she instigates (yes, I go along with it), but it isn't at all a high priority. I'd prefer to get to know her mind and values, etc. I'd rather she was a "nice woman" (i.e., my counterpart!) but that's a rare thing to find these days. I met a "nice woman" once for whom I fell in love. In that case, I never thought about wanting to be alone. I wanted to be with her. And, guess what? We never had sex...wasn't that a refreshing way of courting a nice woman? Refreshing and rare in today's world.

[mbartelsm]

Hi everyone,

I'm a nice girl, never had a nasty break-up or cheated on anyone, and it feels like they're taking advantage of me but I don't know how to stop it from happening. Some of my friend say I might be intimidating them because I'm a 23-year-old PhD student, I speak 3 languages fluently and I've lived on 3 continents by myself.

Doesn't seem like a big deal to me, I know I wouldn't feel inferior if I met a guy who's more intelligent, independent, and brave than me, I'd rather welcome it!

Thanks!

This is the problem, we feel underpowered with such a girl, you are way too smart for an average man, you gotta know someone of your intellectual level or, even if you stay with someone for a while, you'll get bored and they will feel bad.

Or would you treat her like shit because it would make you feel like you have some sort of power over her?

Don't worry about this, its the exact opposite, they feel like you got some sort of power over them

[CAM]

This is the problem, we feel underpowered with such a girl, you are way too smart for an average man, you gotta know someone of your intellectual level or, even if you stay with someone for a while, you'll get bored and they will feel bad.




Don't worry about this, its the exact opposite, they feel like you got some sort of power over them

I hardly agree with this logic. I am quite attracted to women of great intellect. Always have been. Whether I agree with them or not, that is not an issue. There is nothing quite as attractive as a woman who makes me feel humble intellectually, who has accomplished something which I have not--one from whom I can learn something and hopefully vice versa. There is, however, nothing quite as unattractive as a woman (or anyone for that matter) who likes to lord it over another.

Moral: being smart is sexy. being a smarty-pants is not. Balance that out, young lady intellect, and you can have me any day of the week (or one of my associates of similar view) !

[IndiReloaded]

A nice guy has high morals, is quite sensitive, respectful and well-mannered. He does not work the dating market the way nature intended it. Instead of fluttering from flower to flower like a butterfly, he targets one particular girl and courts her for a long while. Of course this almost always fails, but the nice guy has trouble letting go of his often mentally idealised target of affection. Rejection is answered with confusion and misunderstanding. After lots of rejections, the nice guy can metamorphose into the bitter loner.

I am a specimen of this sad life form, so I've had some experience analysing my own modus operandum. I've been quite bitter for two decades after some particular nasty rejections in high school. I've grown out of it, realising after all those years that the rejecting girl does not control her feelings any more than the nice guy does. (She does however control her actions, but I don't want to drag this into the analysis of the evil bitch, another life-form in the love eco-system).

If you can get a nice guy to love you, you have a mate for life.

This made me sad to read, and also very grateful. I married a nice guy (of the non-bitter sort).