Two Girls, One Problem

[Allegedly Dave]

Here's a fun one for everyone...

I had an affair with a married co-worker (Kaysie) in early 2009. Her husband had already cheated several times and counseling wasn't working so I figured I wasn't "ruining" a marriage per se. Anyway, she got separated a couple months later and we've been unofficially together ever since (meaning we're not dating but we are exclusive). Earlier this year, Kaysie became fed up with us not being a legit couple and we took a break.

During that time I met another girl, a neighbor actually, named Tara. We hit it off quickly and then after a few weeks Kaysie suddenly wanted to be involved again. I agreed but left out the fact that I'd met someone else during our time off and also kept Tara in the dark. As always tends to happen, both of them found out what was going on in the end. Regardless, Tara and I had already transitioned to just being friends anyway so she wasn't upset and I told Kaysie that things with Tara were over and done with. So at the end of the day there was about a month of overlap between the two girls.

Fast forward 5 months to today. Kaysie, after seemingly being understanding previously, is suddenly furious that I'm still friends with Tara and says I must break off that friendship entirely or she wants out. I told her I'd be willing to compromise and take steps to make her more comfortable with the friendship (have the two meet, not hang out with Tara alone in the evenings, etc). Kaysie clearly doesn't believe I can just be friends with Tara. On some level I suppose that's valid since, if Tara gave the green-light, I'd be all over her... but Tara does have a boyfriend now. Tara and I already discussed our relationship and we agreed to just being friends months ago.

I understand that the situation is uncomfortable for Kaysie, but my view is that she should respect the friendship and not make ultimatums. I want to find a compromise with her on this, but to demand that I completely ditch Tara, who has become a very good friend of mine, seems unfair. If I did that I would only resent Kaysie for it in the end and that would hurt our relationship. I don't make friends easily and am not anxious to lose one of my closest friends for the sake of another.

Is my position really so outrageous? And whether it is or it isn't, I could really use some advice on what steps to take next...

[Gratedwasabi]

My advice is to stop being a scumbag.

[Allegedly Dave]

Um... how have I been a scumbag? Kaysie's the one that wanted to take a break so I had every right to see someone else during that time and I did. Tara and I had a pretty casual affair going on so there were no obligations with her. I had difficulty ending the physical aspect of my relationship with Tara, and granted I didn't do it quickly enough and things overlapped with Kaysie for a few weeks (about a month), but I did end it. I think there's a big difference between outright cheating and finding someone else during a break.

Rebuttal aside, calling someone a scumbag isn't exactly constructive.

[hello1]

You are a scumbag. You cheated on Kaysie for a month before ending your relationship with Tara. You also say in your post that if Tara came onto you, you would be 'all over her' even though you currently have a girlfriend. You obviously do not love your girlfriend as you would cut Tara out of your life. If you are not decent enough to have a proper relationship, be single. Do not hurt people.

[Allegedly Dave]

First, I never once referred to Kaysie as being my girlfriend. If she's not comfortable with a non-official relationship then she is free to walk away. No one is forcing anyone to do anything here.

I do concede that I was wrong/weak for not ending things with Tara quickly enough.

Also worth clarifying is that I would end things with Kaysie first if Tara was interested enough in me.

FTR No one has answered my question about what to do next. Name-calling isn't advice.

[Agirl]

I totally get where your coming from.

I can definitley understand why Kaysie would be apprehensive (to say the least) about your realationship with you Ex but then again if she really is such a good freind of yours your girlfriend should try her best to understand rather than giving you an ulitimatum. Try and re assure her that you too are now only genuine friends, and maybe you should make sure of that yourself because the worst thing that could happen is that you realise you still have feelings for eachother.

If all else fails you are going to have to re evaluate your situation and if you really have strong feelings for Kaysie you will have to give up your realtionship with Tara.

[Allegedly Dave]

Thank you!

I'm doing my best to convince her, but if it doesn't work I think I need to let Kaysie go. I can either stand by her or stand by principle. If I let her dictate even one friendship then it kinda sets a bad precedent, doesn't it? I would never do that to her and if she really cares about me as much as she claims, she'll be open to some kind of compromise. So far though, she isn't. It's her or Tara in her eyes. On a practical level, I know I have a better shot at something long-term with Kaysie, but she's likely going to kill it.

An added note: during the "time off" she had a one-night stand with a guy. I told her, to be fair, that I'd be fine with her hanging out with him if things were also strictly platonic. Last thing I'd want to be is a hypocrite!

[vertical_sky]

Also worth clarifying is that I would end things with Kaysie first if Tara was interested enough in me.

Um, that's probably what Kaysie is picking up on.... That she's second option, that you're only with her because Tara isn't interested. My guess is she's trying to get you to pick her.... That if it comes down to Kaysie vs. Tara, you'd always pick Kaysie. I think the fact that Tara is your friend is a red herring here... she isn't your friend in a strictly platonic way. If you two were strictly platonic, I'd agree Kaysie is out of line. But the fact is-you're not. Kaysie correctly sees that Tara is competition, and after a) being cheated on by her husband and b) lied to by you (even if you DID later break it off with Tara, you were dishonest for that month overlap), she's probably looking for insurance.

My advice is two-fold. First, break up with Kaysie. It seems to me that you could really take or leave the relationship, by the fact that you'd choose Tara if Tara was interested. And if you can take or leave a relationship... you should probably leave it.

Second, put some distance between yourself and Tara for a while. Not saying you have to completely ditch her as a friend forever and ever. Just whittle down the friendship to more of a friendly acquaintance level until either she dumps her boyfriend and becomes interested in you, OR you no longer have anything but platonic feelings for her. If one of the demands you make in a relationship is that your woman respect your friendships with other females, it is your responsibility to make sure those friendships actually ARE just friendships. It is never going to be fair to treat a girlfriend as "second best option" to one of your female friends who you demand she accept.

[BackUpOrGetStng]

I don't think you're a scumbag, she wanted a break, and she got it. Did she explicitly ask if you were seeing anyone else? My ex tried to pull the same shit, saying I cheated on her, when she initiated a break and didn't set any ground rules. Anyway, just tell Kaysie that you can't deal with her not trusting you and that you have to stop seeing each other if she can't get over it. Flips it all back on her, and doubt she'll leave you if you word it like that.

[Allegedly Dave]

I don't think you're a scumbag, she wanted a break, and she got it. Did she explicitly ask if you were seeing anyone else?

Nope. Though when she later asked if I had been with anyone I did deny it, but only because I didn't feel it was any of her business since a) we were on a break and most importantly because b) she initiated the break.

Anyway, just tell Kaysie that you can't deal with her not trusting you and that you have to stop seeing each other if she can't get over it. Flips it all back on her, and doubt she'll leave you if you word it like that.

That's basically what I recently did though I phrased it a little different. "If you don't trust me then it's not healthy to be involved with me. Stop seeing me if this is going to be a problem." Two days later we had dinner followed by 3 rounds of New Year's sex. It's amazing how reverse psychology can work with some people...

[Allegedly Dave]

Um, that's probably what Kaysie is picking up on.... That she's second option, that you're only with her because Tara isn't interested. My guess is she's trying to get you to pick her.... That if it comes down to Kaysie vs. Tara, you'd always pick Kaysie. I think the fact that Tara is your friend is a red herring here... she isn't your friend in a strictly platonic way. If you two were strictly platonic, I'd agree Kaysie is out of line. But the fact is-you're not. Kaysie correctly sees that Tara is competition, and after a) being cheated on by her husband and b) lied to by you (even if you DID later break it off with Tara, you were dishonest for that month overlap), she's probably looking for insurance.

I think this is pretty spot-on.

My advice is two-fold. First, break up with Kaysie. It seems to me that you could really take or leave the relationship, by the fact that you'd choose Tara if Tara was interested. And if you can take or leave a relationship... you should probably leave it.

This is a tough one because Tara is kind of like that "Megan Fox" fantasy. A guy can love his gf/fiance/wife, but if Megan Fox threw herself at him... odds are good he'd jump on it, just as most women would for George Clooney. Tara is one of those fantasy girls I'd think about but knew I could never get. But I remain haunted by the fact that I DID succeed with her for a full month so suddenly it's technically possible. On the other hand, Tara went for someone else after I had put myself out there, so the odds seem pretty low. I do care for Kaysie quite a bit, so if Tara remains nothing more than an occasional fantasy in my head I don't see any reason to ditch Kaysie.

Second, put some distance between yourself and Tara for a while. Not saying you have to completely ditch her as a friend forever and ever. Just whittle down the friendship to more of a friendly acquaintance level until either she dumps her boyfriend and becomes interested in you, OR you no longer have anything but platonic feelings for her.

I'm definitely in full agreement with this one. I had previously been paying for dinners and such with Tara and essentially making time for her whenever she was available, but now I've reversed all that. Half the time she wants to hang out I now make up an excuse for being too "busy" and even had HER buy me lunch today. Ignoring her txt messages should work wonders as well. I realized that I was essentially acting like her boyfriend minus the physical aspects, and if her actual boyfriend is delivering on those grounds then I'm only helping him out. I think the next time she wants to have dinner or see a movie I'll tell her "You should ask Erik, see if he's busy."

If one of the demands you make in a relationship is that your woman respect your friendships with other females, it is your responsibility to make sure those friendships actually ARE just friendships. It is never going to be fair to treat a girlfriend as "second best option" to one of your female friends who you demand she accept.

Agreed. Although to me, Kaysie isn't so much "second best" as "first choice" out of those realistically available/obtainable. Some practicality comes into play here.

If Tara was a real possibility then I suppose I would be treating Kaysie as second best... if the dynamics shift then I'll have to act. For now I feel like it's okay to continue seeing Kaysie because the odds of Tara coming around are so miniscule. My cards aren't good enough to go all-in on her. The other tricky part is that I really want to move to CA with a roommate in tow, so ditching Kaysie (who definitely wants to move) for the very-off-chance of dating Tara would very likely leave me with nothing in the end.

At the same time, playing it too safe could be a mistake.

[SelflessnHumble]

Here's a fun one for everyone...

Red Flag #1 -The world is a stage-

I had an affair with a married co-worker

Red Flag #2 Whether you chose to pursue her OR whether or not you knew she was in a relationship
(in which sworn oaths in God's house were made to each other) IS: irrelevant because here we are
discussing your repeated history of jumping from relationship to the next the wrong way...

The fact she was in an unsatisfactory marriage with someone else doesn't give anyone the green light to cheat.
Both of you don't exercise good judgment nor have enough self respect to communicate effectively.

Earlier this year, Kaysie became fed up with us not being a legit couple and we took a break.

And why do you suppose this occurred? We reap what we sow.

During that time I met another girl, a neighbor actually, named Tara. We hit it off quickly and then after a few weeks Kaysie suddenly wanted to be involved again. I agreed but left out the fact that I'd met someone else during our time off and also kept Tara in the dark.

What more needs to be said?
You're a coward -evident by your actions, omissions, infidelity and inaction in doing the right thing.
In the long run all you are really doing is hurting yourself and dirtying up your very soul.
The feel good feeling of meeting new women will fade over time and what do you have to show for your behavior?
A long paper trail replete with "FAILED RELATIONSHIPS." -Not good-

Fast forward 5 months to today. Kaysie, after seemingly being understanding previously, is suddenly furious that I'm still friends with Tara and says I must break off that friendship entirely or she wants out. I told her I'd be willing to compromise and take steps to make her more comfortable with the friendship (have the two meet, not hang out with Tara alone in the evenings, etc). Kaysie clearly doesn't believe I can just be friends with Tara. On some level I suppose that's valid since, if Tara gave the green-light, I'd be all over her... but Tara does have a boyfriend now. Tara and I already discussed our relationship and we agreed to just being friends months ago.

Kaysie should have told you BEFORE seeing you again. "no more girls, no more girl/friends."
It stands to reason that both of you are cheaters and cheaters are usually very jealous people
(an outward projection of them selves) Do you see how you are just asking for trouble here?

Can you not make friends with the same sex? Do you really have to be friends with a women
with whom you were two timing Kaysie with of all people???? It doesn't make sense. Make sense?

I understand that the situation is uncomfortable for Kaysie, but my view is that she should respect the friendship and not make ultimatums. I want to find a compromise with her on this, but to demand that I completely ditch Tara, who has become a very good friend of mine, seems unfair. If I did that I would only resent Kaysie for it in the end and that would hurt our relationship. I don't make friends easily and am not anxious to lose one of my closest friends for the sake of another. Is my position really so outrageous? And whether it is or it isn't, I could really use some advice on what steps to take next...

See, here's the thing Dave...
IF you can have a platonic friendship with a women you'd never have cheated until they were single in the first place.
You are in no position to suggest compromises based on what you have done and the manner in which you did them in...

If you want Kaysie to understand you have to show her and involve her.
If she is still unwilling to see your POV then the options become transparently clear...

The solution is simple:
You have a right to be friends with whomever you choose! (shocked right?)
However you have NOT taken into consideration how this makes Kaysie feel.
You don't take out a girl / friend (Tara) just you two in the evening!!!! Red Flag #10,002

Bottom line: IF you are not willing to ditch a former girlfriend turned friend
You will have to face the uncertainty of ditching Kaysie and tell her that you do not respect her ultimatum of ditching
someone you've become close friends with <--------------This just means doing something you're not accustomed to:

"Telling the truth" -even if the outcome doesn't serve your interests!

Sacrifice is what relationships sometimes have to deal with when your history
paints a picture of a man who fails to be held accountable for his actions while
creating new relationships WHILE you still have feelings for another person.

THIS^^^ is why people never get true closure.
Pieces of themselves are taken and embedded (intentionally) unto different people.
Then they wonder why that one person (or two or three) are still in their minds.

Not healthy when and if you finally meet the right person and you still have baggage or unfinished business with someone else!

[Raze]

OP, you have just proven that you are the scum of the Earth. From your behavior, you don't deserve to be in a relationship and it's best that if you continue acting like this that you be single for the rest of your life. You had an affair with a married woman and you are probably the reason that she ended up getting a divorce. Have you ever thought about that? You are clearly seeking women for sex and you are clearly getting satisfaction from this. I hope karma bites you in the ass more than it already has.

[vertical_sky]

Yes, you care for Kaysie, and yes, Tara is a "fantasy" and maybe not a possibility... but Kaysie is still your "safe" option, your "eh I want SOMEONE, and she's who I can get." I don't quite agree with your Megan Fox analogy because that is an ABSOLUTE fantasy. There is no way Megan Fox is going to 1) appear before you and 2) throw herself at you, while Tara IS right in front of you, HAS "thrown" herself at you, and 3) continues to interact with you on more than a friendship level (as you have noted.)

I'm still gonna advise breaking up with Kaysie. You should never be with someone because it's safe, or because you think they're all you can get, especially when you have a fantasy "haunting" you, reminding you that you think you CAN do better. While I understand your trepidation of going from 2 women down to zero, it's really not fair to Kaysie to 1) continue to interact with Tara frankly at all, let alone going to the movies or lunches with her and 2) staying with Kaysie when you feel, deep down, she's just a safe option.

I stick with the adage that you should only date someone if you are really committed and love them. If there's another, "hotter" woman haunting you... then you best cut the girl lose so she can go find someone who DOESN'T view her as "first choice out of those realistically available/obtainable" but first choice PERIOD.

[Raze]

Time to put the monkey back in its cage.