Human Trash

[IndiReloaded]

I am not afraid to question science. It needs to be questioned....thats how we realize we are wrong and discover new things.

You don't know how to, tho. Stating a contrary, belief-based opinion isn't "questioning science". That's taking a contrary stance and isn't how scientists do their work.

[dewilliams2]

You don't know how to, tho. Stating a contrary, belief-based opinion isn't "questioning science". That's taking a contrary stance and isn't how scientists do their work.

I'm aloud to question science however I see fit. I never claimed to be a scientist. I'm a historian. So when it comes to science...I'm just a guy and I'm aloud to question whatever I like. You can't tell me I'm not aloud because I'm not a scientist.

With that logic that means because I scientist tells me something I should simply bow before their wisdom and do as they say unquestioning. Everything should be questioned always. We should even question our own beliefs and not be afraid to change them.

[IndiReloaded]

Hahahahahahahaha! This made me laugh so hard. I find this totally rich, especially coming from someone who personally attacks everyone who disagrees with her on anything.


I was spanked by my parents once. I still love them more than anyone else in my life. They are awesome people and the fact that I once deserved a spanking and they gave it to me doesn't make them evil people.

Do you have anything intelligent to contribute to this thread? Maybe you shouldn't post from work on someone else's dollar, hmmm?

You are another one who loves to read every single thing I post, but then complain about me. That's fine, L. I'm flattered and if you learn something, terrific. I know its stings I think you're not very smart, but you'll have to learn to live with your limitations.

[IndiReloaded]

I'm aloud to question science however I see fit. I never claimed to be a scientist. I'm a historian. So when it comes to science...I'm just a guy and I'm aloud to question whatever I like. You can't tell me I'm not aloud because I'm not a scientist.

Can you claim to be a historian without even an undergrad degree? I wouldn't have thought so. Maybe the standards in that field are different from science.

With that logic that means because I scientist tells me something I should simply bow before their wisdom and do as they say unquestioning.

LOL, you have it backwards. Scientists WANT ppl to discuss things. But it has to be intelligently and without bias. The trouble is, when a scientist asks a non-scientist to actually provide proof for their opinions, they get all upset at actually being asked to think.

Everything should be questioned always. We should even question our own beliefs and not be afraid to change them.

I am sooooo glad you posted this^.

So, I remind you of my earlier post:

I challenge you to find peer-reviewed, validated studies by professionals that are as convincing for your 'school of thought'. Show me that your *opinion* is sound and based on reason and not just a consequence of some conditioning you were unfortunate enough to experience during your formative years. No opinions. Only data, please.

Question your *beliefs* on spanking. Don't be afraid to change them. Even if it turns out you were wrong to do it, you can still apologize to your daughter and make amends for it. Rise above your conditioning.

[dewilliams2]

Can you claim to be a historian without even an undergrad degree? I wouldn't have thought so. Maybe the standards in that field are different from science.

LOL, you have it backwards. Scientists WANT ppl to discuss things. But it has to be intelligently and without bias. The trouble is, when a scientist asks a non-scientist to actually provide proof for their opinions, they get all upset at actually being asked to think.

I am sooooo glad you posted this^.

So, I remind you of my earlier post:

Question your *beliefs* on spanking. Don't be afraid to change them. Even if it turns out you were wrong to do it, you can still apologize to your daughter and make amends for it. Rise above your conditioning.

I have two undergraduate degrees. One in ancient history and one in classic cultures. It took me 5 years they are from Ball State University. An accredited college....where did you get I didn't have any degrees? I'm taking a year off and then I plan to go onto law school. Haven't decided where yet. I kinda want to stay close to home. Indiana University has a good program but Notre Dame does to and the name alone carries some weight. Plus my bosses husband and his two sons went there and he really thinks I should go there. I mean if he can give me some letters of recommendation that might help me get in I suppose I'll at least apply and see what happens.

I'm also really close to two other degrees in philosophy and anthropology. I'd like to get them but I don't know they would really help me and bsu makes you take a minimum of 30 credit hours, or another year roughly in order to go back and get additional degrees and I probably will at some point but I just don't think its beneficial to me at this point. But they were both my minors along with ancient studies and medieval and Renaissance studies....yea I'm a pretty big nerd...I read that Star Trek 2 has a June 29, 2012 release date and got excited.

I never got upset for providing proof for my opinions. I have continually used myself as an example. Since I am not a scientist and have not done extensive research on many people then what I know best is myself and I certainly have not gotten angry for being asked of the origins in which my beliefs have been established.

I will change my beliefs on spanking...if I have a reason to do so. So far you have not proven anything to me. You simply keep making the same points and attempting to discredit mine. Show me something new....what I have seen so far has not swayed me in the slightest.

I wasn't necessarily speaking on questioning and changing opinions on spanking but when I wrote it I knew that is where you would take it. I meant it in a broad sense to include everything we believe.

[IndiReloaded]

I wasn't necessarily speaking on questioning and changing opinions on spanking but when I wrote it I knew that is where you would take it. I meant it in a broad sense to include everything we believe.

If you can't apply this principle to the specific, then you are just spouting useless rhetoric.

Anyway, here are some references on the subject, some original papers, some reviews or articles referring to research. I tried to be balanced in what I took to show both pro and anti-spanking, tho its true there is some murk in how corporal punishment is defined by some.

Again, tho, I state that its Incognitos hitting his kid with a belt that I find most offensive, and unnecessary. I think spanking is just as unnecessary with the other methods we have available b/c its on that slippery slope. Sure, kids can "survive" spanking, but is "surviving" really the best we want for our kids?

Anyway, read for yourself, and make an informed decision. If you still decide to hit your kids, clearly I can't do anything more about it except try to educate you to better alternatives. Some of these references (those from Pediatrics) you won't be able to read unless you have access to an institutional account. You should be able to look up the abstracts on something like Medline, tho.

Good luck.

Deater-Deckard, Kirby; and Dodge, Kenneth A. "Externalizing Behavior Problems and Discipline Revisited: Nonlinear Effects and Variation by Culture, Context and Gender", Psychological Inquiry, Vol. 8, No. 3 (1997), pp. 161-175.
Day, Randal, "Predicting Spanking of Younger and Older Children by their Mothers and Fathers," Journal of Marriage and the Family 60 (February 1998): 79-94.
Straus, 1994; Kipnis, 1999; Kindlon and Thompson, 1999; Newberger, 1999; Hyman, 1997.
Straus M.A., Stewart J.H. (June 1999). "Corporal punishment by American parents: national data on prevalence, chronicity, severity, and duration, in relation to child and family characteristics". Clin Child Fam Psychol Rev 2 (2): 55–70. doi:10.1023/A:1021891529770. PMID 11225932.
Straus, M.A. and Donnelly, D.A. (1994). Beating the Devil Out of Them: Corporal Punishment in American Families. New York: Lexington Books. ISBN 0029317304
Larzelere R.E. (October 1996). "A review of the outcomes of parental use of nonabusive or customary physical punishment". Pediatrics 98 (4 Pt 2): 824–8. PMID 8885980. [url=http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=8885980]A Review of the Outcomes of Parental Use of Nonabusive or Customary Physical Punishment -- Larzelere 98 (4): 824 -- Pediatrics[/url].
Baumrind, Diana (1966). "Effects of Authoritative Parental Control on Child Behavior". Child Development 37 (4): 887–907. doi:10.2307/1126611. [url]http://persweb.wabash.edu/facstaff/hortonr/articles%20for%20class/baumrind.pdf[/url]. Retrieved 2009-08-26.
Baumrind, Diana (1967). "Child care practices anteceding three patterns of preschool behavior". Genetic Psychology Monographs 75 (1): 43–88. PMID 6032134.
"Findings Give Some Support To Advocates of Spanking", The New York Times, 25 August 2001.
MacMillan H.L., Boyle M.H., Wong M.Y., Duku E.K., Fleming J.E., Walsh C.A. (October 1999). "Slapping and spanking in childhood and its association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders in a general population sample". CMAJ 161 (7): 805–9. PMID 10530296. PMC 1230651. [url=http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=10530296]Slapping and spanking in childhood and its association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders in a general population sample -- MacMillan et al. 161 (7): 805 -- Canadian Medical Association Journal[/url].
Graziano A.M., Hamblen J.L., Plante W.A. (October 1996). "Subabusive violence in child rearing in middle-class American families". Pediatrics 98 (4 Pt 2): 845–8. PMID 8885986. [url=http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=8885986]Subabusive Violence in Child Rearing in Middle-class American Families -- Graziano et al. 98 (4): 845 -- Pediatrics[/url].

[IndiReloaded]

One more:

[url=http://books.google.ca/books?id=ERbQbNk2rDgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=beati ng+the+devil+out+of+them&source=bl&ots=SxMakhAnMk& sig=JJ7AWXOABaXTkwbhfAmndMx7P4E&hl=en&ei=FML2S4eCB p_IM4f__K0F&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 &ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false]Beating the devil out of them ... - Google Books[/url]

[dewilliams2]

If you can't apply this principle to the specific, then you are just spouting useless rhetoric.

Anyway, here are some references on the subject, some original papers, some reviews or articles referring to research. I tried to be balanced in what I took to show both pro and anti-spanking, tho its true there is some murk in how corporal punishment is defined by some.

Again, tho, I state that its Incognitos hitting his kid with a belt that I find most offensive, and unnecessary. I think spanking is just as unnecessary with the other methods we have available b/c its on that slippery slope. Sure, kids can "survive" spanking, but is "surviving" really the best we want for our kids?

Anyway, read for yourself, and make an informed decision. If you still decide to hit your kids, clearly I can't do anything more about it except try to educate you to better alternatives. Some of these references (those from Pediatrics) you won't be able to read unless you have access to an institutional account. You should be able to look up the abstracts on something like Medline, tho.

Good luck.

Deater-Deckard, Kirby; and Dodge, Kenneth A. "Externalizing Behavior Problems and Discipline Revisited: Nonlinear Effects and Variation by Culture, Context and Gender", Psychological Inquiry, Vol. 8, No. 3 (1997), pp. 161-175.
Day, Randal, "Predicting Spanking of Younger and Older Children by their Mothers and Fathers," Journal of Marriage and the Family 60 (February 1998): 79-94.
Straus, 1994; Kipnis, 1999; Kindlon and Thompson, 1999; Newberger, 1999; Hyman, 1997.
Straus M.A., Stewart J.H. (June 1999). "Corporal punishment by American parents: national data on prevalence, chronicity, severity, and duration, in relation to child and family characteristics". Clin Child Fam Psychol Rev 2 (2): 55–70. doi:10.1023/A:1021891529770. PMID 11225932.
Straus, M.A. and Donnelly, D.A. (1994). Beating the Devil Out of Them: Corporal Punishment in American Families. New York: Lexington Books. ISBN 0029317304
Larzelere R.E. (October 1996). "A review of the outcomes of parental use of nonabusive or customary physical punishment". Pediatrics 98 (4 Pt 2): 824–8. PMID 8885980. [url=http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=8885980]A Review of the Outcomes of Parental Use of Nonabusive or Customary Physical Punishment -- Larzelere 98 (4): 824 -- Pediatrics[/url].
Baumrind, Diana (1966). "Effects of Authoritative Parental Control on Child Behavior". Child Development 37 (4): 887–907. doi:10.2307/1126611. [url]http://persweb.wabash.edu/facstaff/hortonr/articles%20for%20class/baumrind.pdf[/url]. Retrieved 2009-08-26.
Baumrind, Diana (1967). "Child care practices anteceding three patterns of preschool behavior". Genetic Psychology Monographs 75 (1): 43–88. PMID 6032134.
"Findings Give Some Support To Advocates of Spanking", The New York Times, 25 August 2001.
MacMillan H.L., Boyle M.H., Wong M.Y., Duku E.K., Fleming J.E., Walsh C.A. (October 1999). "Slapping and spanking in childhood and its association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders in a general population sample". CMAJ 161 (7): 805–9. PMID 10530296. PMC 1230651. [url=http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=10530296]Slapping and spanking in childhood and its association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders in a general population sample -- MacMillan et al. 161 (7): 805 -- Canadian Medical Association Journal[/url].
Graziano A.M., Hamblen J.L., Plante W.A. (October 1996). "Subabusive violence in child rearing in middle-class American families". Pediatrics 98 (4 Pt 2): 845–8. PMID 8885986. [url=http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=8885986]Subabusive Violence in Child Rearing in Middle-class American Families -- Graziano et al. 98 (4): 845 -- Pediatrics[/url].

Just because I don't change an opinion that you want me to change does not make my statement pointless rhetoric. You don't have to change all of your opinions but all of my opinions ar subject to change if something comes to light that makes me want to change them. I can't help that you have proven nothing to me yet. Thats just a silly statement on your part....you seem to have a problem with anybody who disagrees with you. You also never seem to acknowledge when you are wrong...such as you assuming I had no degree. If you recall I mentioned a few days ago that you have a tendency to form opinions based on little knowledge of actual facts....it is something you have yet to remedy.

And I'm not looking up all of those books...I'm not that interested int he topic....your the expert...give me a summary....pull out the best evidence and make your case. Your the one who thinks my opinion is wrong.

[SirWagginston]

I thought I made two very excellent arguments against spankings. Unfortunately, your honor dictates that you must focus on and respond to the poster that is most abrasive. I'm not sure if that should make me mad at you, or the abrasive poster. So I'll settle with "**** it."

[girl68]

without doubt indi got the appropriate award for being little miss know eveything I'm so smart.

[dewilliams2]

I thought I made two very excellent arguments against spankings. Unfortunately, your honor dictates that you must focus on and respond to the poster that is most abrasive. I'm not sure if that should make me mad at you, or the abrasive poster. So I'll settle with "**** it."

I didn't think there was anything to rebut in your post. It was a description on your personal experience.

If you want my personal opinion you were an out of control child to begin with if your father let you get by with questioning him in public. It is one thing to question at home (I do encourage open dialogue at home) but in public it is inappropriate.

And then you followed that up by punching your father in the testicles. I never once considered hitting my parents. I did hit my dad there by accident once when we were moving some fence and I poked him with a post...accident though....he didn't get mad.

As I said, I think you were a bit out of control.

So you wanted my response, there it was....thats what I think.

The argument that your father taught you violence and so you returned it on him doesn't hold water for me. My father smoked for years but I do not smoke even though I witnessed him do it.

I don't know maybe I'm just more of an individual than some people and don't play follow the leader but I don't believe our parents teach us violence. There are people who were never spanked who are violent. My cousin Jeremy who I spoke of several pages back. My Aunt Melanie never spanked them and he got his kids takin away for beating them. He actually is an abusive father....so where did he learn that from?

[Asip4u]

I found this quite interesting and at times highly entertaining so thank you for that. I do appreciate when people use some data to back their statement, otherwise it's just your opinion and most won't take you too seriously.

[Gribble]

Being smacked around won't necessarily turn you into a violent cretin. However, it sure as hell doesn't help matters any.

[dewilliams2]

I found this quite interesting and at times highly entertaining so thank you for that. I do appreciate when people use some data to back their statement, otherwise it's just your opinion and most won't take you too seriously.

I find this entertaining as well...and I've said all along this is just my opinion....how seriously I'm takin isn't important to me...I can still state it.

If I wanta say that God lives in my pants and thats my opinion I can scream it from the roof of the White House if I can make the sprint across the lawn and shimmy up the side of the building without being shot...cause thats my right.

But your correct...I've yet to see any stats....and with all this talk of science.

[IndiReloaded]

IMO, anyone who won't at least investigate the possibility of a better alternative to physical punishment has no business raising children. There is no job more demanding of someone's intelligent resources and commitment.

I gave you references, with stats. You want me to think for you too?? Wow. I would never ask for someone elses summary when I have the actual source information to form my own conclusion from.

You are just too lazy to look at them and expect to be spoon fed. Exactly like students who are given a reading list and then complain they didn't know something was going to be on the exam. Its not my job to convince you to be a better parent, its your job to be interested in it for yourself. All I can do is provide you resources and I did.

You just proved you aren't really interested in supported facts, just your opinion. I hope that attitude stands you well in your life, especially on important issues. Good luck with it.

Good job also ignoring all those questions, again, btw. Its okay, tho. Eventually you'll come up with a story about the who spanked you for the car incident and the timing of it. You know you I've caught you in a contradiction, so I'll stop bothering you about it now. Or maybe it was so long ago you forgot, despite your detailed post about it. LOL.