Strange sex talk -- preparing to go to counseling on Monday

[ftm]

Okay,

The girlfriend and I had a long talk this morning in expectation of our first counseling session on Monday. We gave eachother a sort of "state of the relationship talk" and discussed a few things. (To those who haven't read my other threads, a quick summary: We've been together 2 years. Sex slowed down after 5 or 6 months and has been slowing ever since. I have tried everything I know how to to make her understand how ignored I feel, she has made little visible effort to change things. We are both in our 20s. I am not asking for much. 3-4 times a week would be great. Once upon a time, that was us on a slow week. Complicating factors, she got drunk and made out with a guy in a bar a couple of weeks ago and then lied about it later. Now I don't trust her anymore. Which brings us to counseling.)

I am hoping for some advice on how to frame things while we are in counseling. I don't know what to expect and want to avoid everything seeming like it's my issue.

Here are a few examples of some exchanges we had today while we talked.

--

ME: I'm still deeply hurt over what you did with that guy two weeks ago. I don't feel like I trust you anymore.

GIRLFRIEND: Still? I thought things were better. You've been acting so normal around me, how could you expect me not to think you've moved on from this. [this after she basically demanded that I act normal until therapy]

--

ME: I don't think my sexual needs are unreasonable. All I ask is that I be able to initiate sex on occasion, and that we have it more frequently.

GIRLFRIEND: Has it ever occurred to you that this might just be a male/female thing? Men think about sex more than women. There's a reason why "I have a headache" is the stereotype that it is, men have been hearing this from their partners since the dawn of time. No man in a long term relationship can expect to get all the sex he wants. Sex slows down for everyone in time. How can you fault me for feeling the same way that MOST off the other people in the world feel MOST of the time? [For the record, I have never asked her for a buffet. I just want to not feel like I'm living in a nunnery for between 29 and 31 days out of every 31 days.]

ME: I don't think that our sexual frequency is remotely comparable to most of our peers in a similar situation to ours.

GIRLFRIEND: Why are you making this about everyone else? This should be about us. And it's like sex is the only thing that matters to you in this relationship. Don't I mean more to you than that? You act like it's the most important thing. Everything else is great, that should be enough.

ME: Your inability to address this after months of effort on my part and huge adjustments that I have made had made this more than a sex problem for me. It's a relationship problem.

GIRLFRIEND: It seems like all you care about is the sex now. You didn't used to be like this. What changed?

ME: It's not all I care about. But it's very important to me. It should be important to you, too.

GIRLFRIEND: I have a low sex drive. It's out of my control. Why should I have to be defined as the one with a problem. What adjustments will you make?

ME: I'm not saying the one with the highest sex drive has to set the pace. I'm just asking that we settle into some kind of normal frequency, and that I feel free to express myself to you sexually.

GIRLFRIEND: Normal? What is normal? Every relationship is different. I can't change how I am. Why can't you appreciate the rest of our relationship for what it is?

----

I feel like no matter what I do, this is going to end up being framed as "all my boyfriend cares about is sex" and that if I leave this relationship, all she's going to say is "you shallow bastard, all you cared about was sex."

How can I go into this counseling session sounding like a reasonable person? I am so steamed about all of this that I'm worried I am going to sound like a bit of a lunatic even if I try not to. And, of course, there is the whole betrayal issue. What can I possibly say to make her understand that it's up to HER to build trust and make amends somehow, not up to ME to magically forgive her just because two weeks has passed. She strayed. I was the wronged party!

This is so aggravating.

[VincenzoG91]

What is the therapist saying? And what gender is the therapist? I don't see your girl taking responsibility for anything, just blaming you. And if the therapist isn't calling her on that crap, I don't think this is going anywhere productive.

[Aeradalia]

I can't change how I am. Why can't you appreciate the rest of our relationship for what it is?

This is what counseling will boil down to... you two are far too incompatible. She has one view of how a relationship should be and you have a conflicting view. She seems set on blaming you and you seem set on blaming her, and neither of you are getting anywhere.

I think it'd be best for you to save your money and find someone more compatible.

[LailaK]

Her circular reasoning is stupid. First she says that it's normal for people to have little to no sex (NOT TRUE) and then she says that the situation isn't about everyone it's about the two of you.

What. Ever.

You need to be straight up with her. Tell her that the bottom line is that you love her but you CAN NOT and WILL NOT be in a sexless relationship. Tell her that's not normalcy to you, nor is it love and if that's how she wants it you'd be better off as friends or whatever.

Sex is a big deal. Personally I believe that without sex a couple is little more than good friends. She seems to have issues owning up to the mistakes that she is making/ has made. Hopefully counseling will help the two of you.

[vashti]

Why on earth would you bother with counseling when it is clear you are incompatible? Do you have a money tree growing in the backyard?

You aren't married, and don't have kids... just move on!

[misombra]

it would be a deal breaker for me to be hounded so much for sex.

how long have you been together?

[cmacattack1]

Just for the record, I think he meant next Monday. They haven't gone yet, this was their heart to heart talk.

I read that first line, and I pictured her thinking "Here we go, with another talk. Let's tune him out and argue some more."

"Still? I thought things were getting better." - Evidence that she does not understand that their is alot of work to go and seems unwilling to contribute as it goes back to normal.

"You've been acting so normal all this time about it." -Kind of your fault for putting up with this because you are doing it to save your relationship and she sees it as you putting up with her bullshit. Another reminder that you have been a bit of a doormat.

"That's why men have being hearing "I have a headache" since the dawn of time." -I'm guessing you got pissed at her for the whole "I have a headache excuse" and let her know. Using generalized stereotypes and rationalization to defend herself. Not asking the proper questions like "Why is this happening?" I think she knows the answer but is afraid of the truth.

"Why are you making this about everybody else? This should be about us." - Ah I remember this old case of circular logic and just arguing to the point until the other person would back off. She also just used "everybody else" in her previous statement. I don't see this going anywhere. And it doesn't...

"Everything else is great, shouldn't that be enough?" - Delusional? Have you talked about more than just sex, even though it's the key issue? It should never be enough, you should always want to be working towards something. Not settle at a certain level.


"Sex always slows down over time." -Yes, it does slow down if you let it. So many times, people try to reignite the passion in the relationship because they love each other and want to work. She just has this view that when you settle down, that's it, all effort is out the window. Clearly spoiled about relationships (alot like me I used to share this view, until I realized that my comfort for this wouldn't fly in any relationship)

"It's a low sex drive. It's out of my control." - Could be true, but as they mentioned before, it could be a sex drive for somebody else. She seems bored and lost her attraction to you but is sticking it out because of the comfort. I was depressed and I had a low sex drive, but you better believe that now I'm not getting any, I could **** my way through next week. Don't take it personally, that's just how she feels and doesn't reflect upon your appearance and your skills in bed. Remember how awesome that sex was when she cheated on you? Shows what she is capable of when she wants to be?

"You didn't used to be like this. What changed?" and "What adjustments have you made?" -The whole dynamic of the relationship changed. Viewed you as the one who has changed and she is clearly not at fault. Not taking responsibility for her part in this.

"Every relationship is different. What is normal?" - There are certain standards to a relationship. Her current idea of one isn't up to what you believe and expect a loving, happy relationship to be. Incompatibility?


I can't help but feel like your talks about sex are kind of a drag as well. Sex isn't about bargaining, isn't about meeting a certain quota, and so on. I know you aren't setting those but she could be taking it that way. It's supposed to be about mutual attraction, feeling close to one another, spontanaiety, a beautiful moment between two people that give a shit about each other. Passion. She doesn't have that man. It's been gone for a long time. You've known this for a long time.

[vashti]

it would be a deal breaker for me to be hounded so much for sex.

Yeah, that isn't sexy at all.

[ftm]

What is the therapist saying? And what gender is the therapist? I don't see your girl taking responsibility for anything, just blaming you. And if the therapist isn't calling her on that crap, I don't think this is going anywhere productive.

Well, the therapist hasn't said anything yet, because we haven't gone yet. I just want to be prepared.

This is what counseling will boil down to... you two are far too incompatible. She has one view of how a relationship should be and you have a conflicting view. She seems set on blaming you and you seem set on blaming her, and neither of you are getting anywhere.

I think it'd be best for you to save your money and find someone more compatible.

Well, it's not costing us anything. It's through her school, covered by her insurance. And I wouldn't say I am set on blaming her. I am more than willing to make adjustments on my end, but she's assured me I'm doing nothing wrong. According to her the sex has been great, I am attractive, kind, attentive, loving and reliable.

Her circular reasoning is stupid. First she says that it's normal for people to have little to no sex (NOT TRUE) and then she says that the situation isn't about everyone it's about the two of you.

You need to be straight up with her. Tell her that the bottom line is that you love her but you CAN NOT and WILL NOT be in a sexless relationship. Tell her that's not normalcy to you, nor is it love and if that's how she wants it you'd be better off as friends or whatever.

Sex is a big deal. Personally I believe that without sex a couple is little more than good friends. She seems to have issues owning up to the mistakes that she is making/ has made. Hopefully counseling will help the two of you.

I pretty much said exactly this to her. I said that I can't be happy if things continue on as they have been (she got pretty riled up over that one, but whatever, it's the truth.) Secondly, I said that as far as I am concerned the only big difference between lovers and great friends is the sex. She was furious at me about this and said the fact that I felt this way means I don't understand what it means to be in a relationship. The thing is, SHE doesn't really have any super-close friends. She and her "best" friends don't really share anything close to the level of intimacy that I share with my closest friends. This is just a big difference between us. I've been adamant with her that I need a lover as well as a confidant, and that at this time in my life sex needs to be a part of this.

I hope the counseling helps, too. She has trouble admitting fault. She's had a rough history and I think wants to avoid getting down on herself about anything as much as possible...

Why on earth would you bother with counseling when it is clear you are incompatible? Do you have a money tree growing in the backyard?

You aren't married, and don't have kids... just move on!

It's not costing us anything. See above. We are lucky to have the resources we do.

I don't believe we are clearly incompatible. At least not yet. I'm almost there. We have a great time together, and when there is sex its absolutely amazing, and we have a lot of the same ideals and goals. I mentioned to her that she needs to consider we might just be sexually incompatible and might be happier with other people and she tossed the notion out. I think she thinks I am going to have some huge breakthrough and suddenly not care about lack of sex. I suppose that would make her about as delusional as I am

it would be a deal breaker for me to be hounded so much for sex.

how long have you been together?

2 years. I wouldn't say I've been "hounding" her for sex. If anything, I'm too polite. Frankly, I have held my tongue for a long time, at her request. My needs are not unreasonable. I'm not asking for sex three times a day, or to be allowed to pee on her face, or anything out of the ordinary. You are right, though. If my needs are making her so uncomfortable, she could always tap out. I don't think she's anywhere close to that, though.

[ftm]

Yeah, that isn't sexy at all.

The lengths to which I have gone to be "sexy" for this woman, to be "romantic," to put her "in the mood" have at times been downright theatrical. It's not like I don't try

[vashti]

The lengths to which I have gone to be "sexy" for this woman, to be "romantic," to put her "in the mood" have at times been downright theatrical. It's not like I don't try

It isn't working because you are incompatible.

I'll spare you the lecture about why health insurance is so expensive.

[starbuck]

Ok, a couple of things:

First of all, I wouldn't view therapy as strictly a way to get her to see things your way. Embrace it as a tool that will help you change your dynamics and give you the tools to reconnect with her. I realize that your frustration level is at an all time high, but there is still going to be alot of work involved, so you're going to have to have more patience.

Second of all, correct me if I'm wrong but unless you're exaggerating, she only has sex with you once a month now, right? And you're wanting it 4 times a week? Dude. With a partner who also wants it this much, it's not unreasonable, but to her, it probably is.

Would you settle for once a week? Because with your current partner, that would be a better compromise to make.

[Kaius]

Why bother with counseling when you two aren't even married? Vashti is right on.
What's the point of staying together when you two have different needs?
She's not interested in sex.....or perhaps she's not interested in sex with you.
When people lose interest in their partner, sex decreases. Plain and simple.

[misombra]

if you stay with this girl you're gonna be one of those guys that comes on here and he's married with kids and his wife refuses to have sex with him. then he can't leave because she'll take the kids and nickel and dime him to death.

just a warning. might not want that to be you.

[Gigabitch]

I doubt counseling will keep you together, but I think it will be really good for you to have a third party in the room who will stop her from deflecting everything you say and insist that she give some straight, non-contradictory answers.

I hope your counselor tells you to stop bending over backwards to give in to her unreasonable demands. She demanded that you act "normal" until counseling when she made out with someone? Who the **** does she think she is? More to the point, who the **** do YOU think she is? Is she Princess Golden Pussy?