Lots of questions for you guys! (Long)

[Meiso]

Some of you may know my story from previous posts. To make a long story short, several months ago my friends noticed that a co-worker of mine was very flirty and affectionate towards me. I eventually became interested in her and we started spending time together. I know it's kinda sad, but we were talking online one day and I mentioned I had feelings for her more than friendship. She responded she had thought about it, but didn't want to pursue something because there was no spark, she'd feel self-concious because I was too attractive and that she didn't want to risk things. Fine I really like her so I'm happy to be friends. After getting turned down we got a lot more closer and spent the majority of our social time together.

My problem is I'm convinced I'm still getting mixed signals occasionally from her. I know a lot of guys can look for any little reason to cling onto hope, and I don't consider myself as being one of those people. Perhaps some opinions could help me.

She recently was out of town on business. A couple of days after she returned she called me to say hello and catch up. It was well past midnight that she called, and she eventually came over and ended up staying until about six in the morning talking and hanging out. Later in the week she called me again during the daytime. We talked for a couple of hours as usual, and she asked me what my plans for the evening were. I told her I wasn't sure. She responded that she'd call me back later on and see what I was up to. She never called back. This has happened before, so I got upset this time. I called her and politely asked her what kind of friend she considered me, one of her close ones or a backup friend. I know it probably wasn't the best thing to say, but I didn't accuse her either, I just asked. She was a bit offended understandably, but she denied that I was a backup friend. Anyway, the next night I bumped into her but didn't really talk much or invite her to come out with me. That was a pretty big step for me as I am VERY predictable with her as of late. She knows I enjoy her company, and previously I'd always take her out with me and we'd have a great time. Anyway, the next day rolled around and I bumped into her again. Once again I didn't invite her to come along. I was polite, made some chit chat, then excused myself and told her to have a great night. I went out with the guys and had a complete blast. I was really proud that I was finally showing some backbone and not chasing after her company. So this afternoon I get a call from her. We talk quite a bit on the phone... Often for hours... But anyway, she was really interested in what I did lastnight and asked me where I went. I talked, but once again I wasn't totally into the conversation like I normally would be. Once again, she asked me what I was up to in the evening. I said I didn't know. She asked if I wanted her to return a belonging of mine later and I said no it was okay for now. She then told me she would call me later on and see what I was up to.

So here I am. I've accepted that months ago she turned me down, and I've tried my best to be her friend and keep my feelings on the backburner. Is it right/normal for a girl to be calling me and coming over LATE at night? Some female friends of mine said if they did that it would be because they wanted to fool around with a guy, or had feelings for him. Or is it just that she's comfortable with me and likes to hang out at weird hours? Also, she's been forgetting a lot of her stuff at my place. It's been fairly conistantly lately including items like her purse. If there's a long term trend of forgetting stuff at someone's place, is that just a way of her ensuring another visit without her having to just ask me to hang out? She's a really defensive person, and rarely lets her emotional guard down... Especially with guys because she doesn't trust them. Does it sound like maybe she wants to be around me, but is afraid to just say it? Is there any explanation to why she keeps telling me she'll call me later but doesn't? Is that my hint to call her back myself? I've been refusing to do so... The way I've been approaching things is that she turned me down, and hasn't been doing the best in the friend department. I decided it was best to pull back and not be so emotionally available for her. The whole ball in her court idea... I'm refusing to chase and chase when it's not mutual, even if it's just for sharing company. Does this sound like an okay thing for me to do? I'd talk to her about it... But I really don't want to make things any more strained than they are. I'd just like to hear some input of what you guys think might be going on. Is this relationship nervously taking steps towards something more than friendship?

[ViSionS]

The fact that she leaves things over at your place, and more than just once or twice says to me she is doing it on purpose, as I think you noticed. i.e. she needs excuses to come see you. I think she has walls up but doesn't want to let them down because in the past she has been hurt when she does. I understand your questioning weather or not she is just teasing you but from my experience (and my girlfriend is giving input on this too) girls usualy don't tease in the way you are describing. In fact my girlfriend said she didn't understand why you thought she was teasing you. Teasing almost always includes some sort of sexual component if it's meant to be malicious or if it is coming from a known tease, I hope that makes sense. I think you are taking her flirting, advances, little hints, or whatever you want to call it, as teasing. Which in a way flirting is actually teasing but not the kind of teasing that you think it is. It's more teasing to let someone know they think you are attractive, or they are interested or just like you. Unless you have left anything out about the way she is acting, I think she is probably interested now, even if she wasn't before. Who know's why she wasn't before, she may not even know. I would say it is safe to show some interest if you still are. The other posibility is, and this is rare, mean, and selfish, but doesn't happen a whole lot but does. She could be using you to make someone else jealous, or want you around as just a safety. Safety meaning someone to pass the time until someone better comes along. Now it's true you will never get out of her if you are a safety or not directly, but there are some clues you can look for. Does she often talk to strange men on the internet, or at bars, even when you are around? Is she dispassionate when you are being intimate? Does she lean on you when she needs you and when her crisis is over does she seem to strangely be less available when she is done leaning on you? I know these things are mostly things after you are together, but it's hard to tell up front. I think that is one of the things dating is for.

Ok, the late at night thing could mean she want's to be f*ck buddies possibly... Maybe the saying she would call you and then doesn't is because yes she wan'ts you to call her, or she just want's to see if she has any power over you. I agree with what you are doing, I wouldn't call her every time she says she will and doesn't. Definately not, but if you are interested do call her and see what her reaction is. If she seems distant all the time (more than just once or twice) then I would say there are alterior (sp?) motives to her interest in you. I think you could find out more if you play into it just a little, not avoid it like it seems you are doing. Play into it with the thinking you are trying to find out more information, and then pay attention, close attention, to what happens. You should be able to get a pretty good gut feeling about what is going on once you explore a little more. If I was unclear about anything, please let me know, I would be happy to clarify (my girlfriend too we are so in love )))

ViSionS

[Meiso]

Wow I've posted in lots of forums with my issues and I've never had such an insightful and helpful reply! Thanks so much!

I'll be the first to admit that I can be clueless with girls, especially when games are being played. I just found the items being left behind really odd. It started a couple of months ago. This girl had left the first thing there, and she forgot to take it the four times she was over at my place. I finally remembered one night and said here make sure you take this. Her response is "Oh are you trying to say you don't want me coming back?" in a joking voice. That caught me attention and I figured there was some truth behind her feelings. More recently she forgot her purse when she was over late at night. I thought that was a pretty big thing to forget. She didn't call all day until midnight when she asked if it was there. I said yeah and said I could bring it to her. She said it was ok. She came over but I just gave it to her and didn't ask her to stay because I assumed she was busy with other things. As far as the wall goes, I've always known she's had one by listening to the things she says. She's confided in me that was cheated on by her last boyfriend with a close friend of hers. I often catch her making remarks like guys are pigs and guys only want to get laid etc etc...

Ok I'll agree she's not being a tease. I can see the difference in how you highlighted it. Still... I find her advances or hints really unfair coming from her when she expressed a desire to only have a friendship. It seems like anytime I back off just enough, get my head on straight, and approach her as if she was any other friend she does something new to make me shake my head in confusion. Perhaps that's my fault, I don't know. All I know is that I've NEVER cared so much about making things work with any girl. I hate to sound shallow, but I tossed other girls aside in the past when things were left at a friendship level. I've been determined to keep this girl close to me in any capacity. That's pretty big for me because I know it'd test my strength to see her with someone else.

I'm just afraid of being used as the safety net. I'd feel cheated after making so many efforts to be close to her as a friend. She tells me that I'm one of her closest friends, and trusts me more than a lot of her girlfriends. That means a lot to me. My own defense mechanisms tell me to trust no one, but her actions have showed me she deserves a certain amount of my trust. As to your questions... She doesn't talk to any strange men on the internet or in the bars when I'm around. Whenever we go out, it's either just the two of us or co-works as well. She has guy friends she'll talk to, but she always makes a point to introduce me, or at least tell me afterwards who they were and what they were talking about. She's very attractive, and I've seen some respectable guys give her their best game. She's friendly, and will entertain a conversation with just about anyone. One night I warned her about this guy, knowing he was out just to have sex with her. Sure enough, he finally revealed his colours and invited her back to his hotel room. She shut him down, came over to me and bought me a drink and told me about everything he tried to do. I also heard that another time, a friend of ours had met up with her and some others after the bar. This guy started playing around and eventually tried to fool around with her. She shut him down, said absolutely not, and left shortly after. So... When we're in public she's really cool that way. She even introduced me to all of her girlfriends, and I found out that she's been giving them updates on what's new and going on with me. Continuing on... She's never been dispassionate to me when we've been emotionally intimate. So many nights we've spent alone together, just the two of us, having drinks and talking until the sun came up. We talk about all sorts of things and do a pretty good job of offering emotional support to each other. I always catch myself talking up a storm, and apologize, she laughs and asks me to continue saying she loves hearing me talk. As far as any crisis goes... She has been pretty consistant. I've helped her out when she needed me, and she's done the same for me. Actually, one time I had gone to another friend for help without asking her first, and she took it kind of personal and asked why I couldn't come to her for help.

As for the f*ck buddies thing... I was wondering the same thing. One of my best friends is a girl who knows this girl pretty well, and says that's what she took her recent behaviour as. When I've called her in the past, there have been times that she came across as disant, but only because of our hectic schedules and she was really busy. There have been nights that I've called her drunk and she offered a patient ear and never hung up the phone. So who knows. I'm just rying to figure out how to handle things now. The late night visits are great... But right now I'm gonna see how pulling back works. I've been accused of being predictable, and have even caught this girl admitting that sometimes she can tell just exactly what I'd do. I want to change that.

I guess the only thing that worries me is we used to be physically flirty. She'd pull my chair right beside hers in the bar... hug me... play fight... stuff like that. Now she doesn't do that stuff as much. Any hugs I initiate. Although she does get more physically flirty when she drinks. I used to kid around and say not to touch me, and she respond with oh you love it when I touch you. So either she's trying to distance herself, or if she developed feelings for me maybe she's playing it safe. Who knows. Any more input would be greatly appreciated. You guys are great!

[ineedsomespace]

Forgive this brief comment, particularly after you've both spent so much time on the above!

I'm not convinced by the f**k buddy thing. This whole situation looks like a familiar scenario to me.

What's the saying? "It's a woman's perogative to change her mind..?" That seems to fit. She seems to be warming to the idea of getting together with you. It's perfectly possible for a girl to move from wanting to be friends to wanting more. I think the fact that you backed off has been in your favour - I assume you were backing off in order to give her something to think about? I think it worked.

Some people like being the centre of attention. When attention shifts, they begin to pursue that attention.

If you want to get together with her, keep playing it cool until you feel ready to make a move - unless she makes a move first. It's tricky, because if I have read the situation wrong, making a move could just put a wedge between you as friends... But perhaps that wouldn't be a bad thing. In my experience, trying to be friends with a girl you really want to go out with always makes life fairly miserable.

[Meiso]

Okay I need some more input. I had originally been in the mindset that I wouldn't call her. I finally decided that I was playing a game myself. I realized she was the one doing a lot of the calling, so I called her in the afternoon just to say hello and see how she was doing. She seemed very happy that I called. She asked me what I was doing later, I told her nothing. I asked her what she was doing later, she said the same. She then asked me if I wanted to do something with her. I agreed.

She came over at 10PM and stayed until 4AM. The six hours went by like six minutes. We sat very close to each other while we listened to music and talked. I made an effort to be more physically closer to her. She never backed away from me. I'd tickle her a bit and she'd scream in a girly voice to stop. I asked her if she didn't want me touching her, and she said no, just as long as I didn't tickle her. I'm HOPING this was a good thing. She didn't really touch me much, just in response to the touching I started. The entire time we had a fantastic conversation, smiled and laughed. There was never an akward pause. She made an effort to explain to me that she was not the backup friend that I thought she was. She explained that whenever plans between us didn't work out, she was either at home doing schoolwork or with her girlfriends, never "anyone else". I'm still kinda confused by what she was getting at. Anyway... I'm very confident she was happy being with me. She'd yawn sometimes because of the hour, and I'd ask her if we were taking too long, and she'd respond "Shut up silly! I'm not done with you yet! We have lots of time!". Things like that made me pretty happy.

When she left she thanked me for a great time and sharing all my interests with her. She said it was really interesting and she'd like to do it again sooner rather than later. She said she couldn't wait to tell her friends about what "... we made".

Soooo... Any opinions on what did/didn't happen tonight? Was I wrong to be so touchy with her? Was the fact that her touching was only in return a sign that she wasn't into me? Any input would be appreciated.

[ineedsomespace]

It's pretty clear to me from what you've said that she wants more than just friendship.

If this isn't a sign of this:

I asked her if she didn't want me touching her, and she said no, just as long as I didn't tickle her.

Then I don't know what is!

[Ladies' fan]

Hi there,

Thanks for posting. You really should have "closed" her--that is, you should have kissed her, after steering the conversation appropriately. In theory you have probably blown it, but you might still have a chance. If something like that happens again, you *must* close, or your chances seriously suffer. A real pity, given that you would almost certainly have scored, assuming correct timing.

Remember the first three letters of the alphabet: ABC. Always Be Closing.

I hope it works out in the end--good luck!

Ladies' fan.

P.S. I once went on a date with a girl. After dinner, she asked me up for coffee. Went up. She took her shoes off and lay down on the bed. I wasn't sure whether I should go for it or not--that was before I knew how to deal with women. We talked and talked, when I really should have sat beside her and kissed her.

Anyway, of course that killed it, because I must have come across as spineless--which, with hindsight, I was. When the time is right--which it most definitely was, for you--CLOSE! In my case, my behaviour was so cowardly and inept that I really don't blame her for being permanently turned off.

Soon after that she started bedding an older guy: married, not very interested in her, unavailable, and who really knew when to close. Ditched her after a while, of course, and she's still pining over him. That's another story...

[Meiso]

Ouch that doesn't sound promising. I really do have the balls to make that kind of move... But this is a girl who several months back out indicated she didn't have any feelings me. Although lately I've wondered if that's changed, I still don't know. This girl really wasn't touching me by her own accord... Just returning touches. If she really wanted something to happen wouldn't I have seen more clear signals?

[Ladies' fan]

Look, I fully understand your doubts and concerns, for the simple reason that I have had similar experiences.

Honestly, the best thing you can do is to CLOSE--that is, go for it (when the time is right). If she fancies you, that's it, it's the start of a relationship!

If she turns you down, she would most certainly NOT have said yes if you had waited a bit more, and at least you can move on.

The bottom line is that closing at the earliest viable opportunity is a win-win choice: you have the greatest chance of being accepted, and if she rejects you, it saves you lots of cash, time and heartache.

Another benefit of this rapid turnover is that you simply "scan" more girls in a given amount of time (say, a year), which maximises your chances of finding a really great girlfriend.

The worst thing one can do, in my opinion, is to allow one's interest in a lady to:

a) hurt the chances of being accepted, and:

b) waste time on this one lady, when you could be "scanning" lots of others who are just as good if not better.

It is terribly fortunate, therefore, that there is no trade-off between time spent on courtship and chances of success. The quicker things move, the greater your chances, and the faster you move on if she's not interested. For once, something works in our favour!

Go for it!

Good luck,

Ladies' fan.

[takethesewords]

my gf and i were "just friends" for 4 or 5 months before we started dating... i found out she liked me through a mutual friend. i said to her one night as she was about to leave..."i have a serious question..and please, just be honest with me... do you like me as more then a friend?" she instantly said yes.

why don't you try something like that? if she says yes, then its on...if she says no, now you know how she feels and you won't be going insane wondering... i think this is a safer bet then just trying to kiss her...because at least if she says no, you can play it off like "well, thats not what some of our friends have said" or something about her giving you the wrong signals...

[Meiso]

We finally had the heart to heart talk. It lasted almost 5 hours. Wow I guess I was way off. I coulda sworn she was sending me signals but I was wrong. She's just "friendly". I'm so hurt it's torn me up inside and I've never felt so bad in my life. Either way... Now I know and I guess I can make steps that I need to make. I just wanted to thank you guys for your help and advice in the past. You probably won't be hearing from me anymore so take care.

[ineedsomespace]

I guess I misread that situation...

[Meiso]

I think everyone did but her.

Now the question is whether I can remain the friend... or dissapear.

[Ladies' fan]

Disappear.

By far the best option. And remember: once you become her friend, it's over. Period. Read [url]www.intellectualwhores.com[/url]

The post of "takethesewords" describes a fluke, a one in a million case.

Would you rely on the lottery for your living?

Forget her, she's not worth it, move on to a better chick and DON'T BECOME HER FRIEND, go staright to the "I am a sexual being"statement.

Good luck,

Ladies' fan.

[Meiso]

Just a little update for anyone who is interested. I've come to the conclusion I have huge decisions to make. It's not just questions about this girl, but questions about life. Instead of closing the door on her completely I've just acted the exact same with her. I'm always friendly, always smile and continue to be the guy I was. On the inside it may be a different story, but she doesn't have to know it.

Anyway... She's been a bit more physically flirty but not overly much. I found that a bit odd. She would walk by me at work and throw some play punches and then run off and have me go after her. I played along for a bit since I normally would, but after awhile I was just doing the smile and nod. I also heard her talking to some girls about how her perfume tasted funny... And I asked her what it tasted like. It was on her neck and she said I could lick it if I wanted to see. Normally I would have taken that as a signal or flirtation... Now I'm starting to realize she's really f*cked up in the head if she would tell me off one weekend, and then be asking me to lick her neck by her ear the next.

Anyway... Have a great week all.