Western and non Western girls

[vashti]

My brother married a Japanese girl because he was thinking like you, Mish... now he says that culturally, Japanese women are really quite passive-aggressive.

[Mish]

I've never dated a Japanese girl, so I don't know what they are like. My positive experiences were with girls from other Asian countries and parts of middle east and eastern Europe. If I had to compare I'd say western girls so far were on average more passive aggressive and I had more communication issues with them than the others. I think they were somehow more unwilling to come to an agreement, compromise and see things from the other person's point of view.

[bluesummer]

Didn't you post this thread once before?

There's upsides and downsides to both Mish. Neither is superior to the other. I think I mentioned in the other thrread that I'm sure you posted that non-western women are also taught to be pleasing and attentive to their man whether or not it makes them happy or if they really give a crap deep down inside. Do you want someone asking how you feel who is just doing it mechanically? Not to mention that passive-aggressive thing, man.....I could name a few non-western cultures that are rife with this. Asians, Indian women, some middle eastern cultures. They're so demure until you marry them, and then your life turns to hell.

[LailaK]

Go date non-western girls then. The end.

[IndiReloaded]

Asians, Indian women, some middle eastern cultures. They're so demure until you marry them, and then your life turns to hell.

Sorry Mish, but this^ is the truth. There's no culture that is better, its just about compatibility. Personally, I think you'd be best suited to an English girl, intelligent and a bit emotionally reserved.

[Mish]

non-western women are also taught to be pleasing and attentive to their man whether or not it makes them happy or if they really give a crap deep down inside. Do you want someone asking how you feel who is just doing it mechanically?

No, I think it's something else. (P.S. I don't know what this "being taught to please their man mechanically" really is. I dated a few asian / middle eastern girls and never met one with that complex).

I had a chat with my gf and her mom the other day about something not to dissimilar. And I realized that, they are culturally so much closer to each other and their families than we are in the west. They have these family days where once a week or second week they all get together (brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, nephews), they dedicate some time helping each other out, looking out for one another, meeting each other's needs. They show a lot of respect to their family and I've noticed on many occasions, the way women treat their family is how they end up treating their partners. All in all, I've noticed culturally they are incredibly family focused.

Here, people on average treat their parents and family okay, but it's never too close. They are always at an arm's length and when the family does get together once or twice a year for Xmas or other holidays the stories that come out of it from my co-workers and friends are hardly heart warming. In the west people are more individualistic, looking out for themselves, maybe that's where the differences in behaviour come from.

[Gribble]

I always got the impression that for all your white knight syndrome, what you're really looking for is a girl who will submissively bow her head to you. I guess these non-western girls you're meeting are right up your alley.

[vashti]

It strikes me as odd that so many men need their women to feign submissiveness in order to feel like a man. Women of all cultures learn how to wield their power, if not blatantly, then covertly. You can't expect 50% of the world population to be happy about not having any autonomy.

Anyway, if you want women to act submissively, you have to be willing to take control and act like someone a woman would want to be led by.

[Indignant]

Gran Torino anyone? I have to agree with Mish partially.

[starbuck]

I always got the impression that for all your white knight syndrome, what you're really looking for is a girl who will submissively bow her head to you.

Is he? That's not the impression I get from reading the original post.

But why is there no middle ground here? Either a woman is a self-centered drama queen or a submissive doormat? From what Mish posted I think he's just trying to find a woman who shares his values, possesses a certain amount empathy and understanding for her partner, and won't make him want to tear out his hair.

Mish, as for classifying these types of women by region, I'm not sure that it's the most successful way to "filter out" your dating prospects as there are so many factors that shape a person's personality other than ethnic culture, ie., parents, upbringing (rich or poor), socialization by peer groups, etc., And I personally haven't seen the patterns you mention in my female friends (western and non-western).

However if it's working for you, then I don't see a problem. I guess the only harm is the chance that you might pass up a woman who has everything you're seeking just because she doesn't come from the right country.

[Sanctuary]

It sounds like you like shy/insecure girls or girls that don't have a grand sense of entitlement (or from what you've said - any entitlement for that matter). But since I live in a metropolis of western culture and materialism, I can't really relate to what you're saying.

- Materialism

Time and time again I was struck by the amount of monetary value that western girls placed on relationship over anything else. At times it seemed that my value as a person was directly correlated by the amount of money I was spending on them. Things seemed so money centric that at times I wondered if I was dating a product.

Legs - $500
Arse - $900
Boobs - $1,300

And as a product they would act in a "neo-Elle" manner, demanding compensation for pretty much anything. In reality it wasn't this bad, but the real monetary motivation behind many interactions wasn't too far from the surface.

Girls here have found out that they can milk chumps that they don't really like for their $$$. I don't really blame em for it since it's also partly the guy's fault for being such a dumbass. It's no different than when a guy seduces a girl he doesn't really like just to have sex with her.

Girls, if a guy buys you free stuff cause he's dumb and he likes you, take that shit!

- Lingo

I've noticed a requirement for a kind of code when dating these girls. These would sometimes range between references to popular culture to sport to local events, but almost always there was a requirement for lingo that identified you as a local. To be fully accepted I felt like I needed to talk local, act local, be local, any deviation was not acceptable. They'd act in a way that if I didn't use local lingo I'd have little value as a person.

That doesn't make any sense at all. I think whatever style of communicating you possess doesn't have mainstream appeal. Most likely, the problem is you not them.

- Self Centerdness

At times it felt that nothing in the world was important unless it somehow benefited them. Words had to be chosen carefully to extract the most value for them and everyone around them had to dance carefully to their tune. Reality was subjective and the universe was there to revolve around them. I honestly never met as many people who thought so highly of themselves and who had as many needs to increase their personal value above everyone elses.

You mean that girls in western cultures are judgmental? Yea, they are, even if they don't show it. I don't see anything wrong with that, I'm judgmental too.

- Power struggle

Many times over I consistently felt probed for weaknesses that can be undermined and used against me to the girl's advantage in the future. Even when there was nothing to justify this, it felt like second nature to some of the women I dated, like they were already conditioned to do this as some kind of insurance policy. In many of my interactions I felt there was always a power struggle going on beneath the surface, who is really in control and who wears pants in the relationship. Many times over I've heard that even though there is equality, the woman holds the real power in any relationship, a universal truth that should just be accepted and adhered to. Happy wife, happy life, only with particular emphasis on who has the real power in a relationship, at whose expense. I almost started to believe this until I started dating non western girls.

Women don't always hold the power in a relationship. If she's acting like a manipulative bitch and you don't like it, then leave her. If they hold that much power, it's because you give it to them.

I don't know what you're talking about anyway, in most relationships I've noticed that girls are more than happy to give their boyfriends the reins of power. But they do like to believe that they have power in the relationship.

- Lack of understanding and support

Perhaps the biggest hurdle for me was the scarcity of these two key components in my relationships with western women. Relationships were rife with mis-communication and misunderstanding to a point that made me think they simply didn't want to understand. Things may have been going well, but as soon as any problems appeared, understanding and support would disappear almost in an instant. I felt compelled to explain how their support for me would benefit them first before they could provide it. The saying "Laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and you are crying alone" was never truer with these women.

Crying to your girlfriend for support and understanding makes you a whiny bitch and is extremely unattractive. You're a guy, aren't you supposed to be able to solve problems on your own? (not that I'm saying you should never show vulnerability or weakness, that would make you inhuman)

- More humane values

First difference I've noticed when dating non western girls was the difference in values that they placed in the relationship. These values were based on education, empathy and acceptance over money, materialistic aspirations and power controls. Who has how much, their social status, their desirability by others were not important. The important factors were how intelligent, caring and supportive the person was. These were incredible values that I instantly identified and connected with.

Every girl values all those things you mentioned in a partner. It just sounds like the non western girls have considerably lower standards.

Would you date a ridiculously fat girl who was missing clumps of hair (and some teeth) if her values matched yours perfectly or are you a western asshole that can't look past the surface?

- Personality centric

Perhaps for the first time I felt like a person with feelings instead of a walking wallet. It suddenly felt safe to share my views and my perspective even if they were at odds with the girl and somehow contradicted her values, it wasn't the end of the world. Agreeing to disagree was never easier. I felt that the personality was important, it was easily appreciated over all of the other empty gimmicks, forgiveness was available when needed and I was struck by the ease of communication and lack of barriers that traditionally were present in many interactions with western women.

I disagree with girls all the time (which shouldn't be a surprise to people who read my posts since my values are suspect at best) and I have no problem getting along with them.

I don't know what kind of girls you date, but if you feel like a walking wallet you should probably find another girl. I think you have problems being yourself around western women because who you are is not very attractive.

- Ease of finding common language

Perhaps it was a motivation thing or maybe the hardship of fitting in made these women more willing to find the common language, but even with girls who spoke poor English there was never a language barrier. I'd actually find it cute when they couldn't find the right words to express themselves because by their body language I'd already know what they were saying. They'd have a tendency to even blame themselves first for any mis-communication and after experiencing the many offensives that western girls embarked on for any trivial slights in communication, non western girls were an amazing breath of fresh air. The communication would flow for unknown reasons. When all signs pointed to difficulties due to differences in culture, language skills and customs the communication itself and willingness to come to an agreement would never be easier to achieve.

Why was it so much easier to achieve? I'm still wondering.

No offense, but I'm gonna be offensive - you speak English and you have trouble communicating with people that speak English? I think that your communication skills are lacking in some regard and that's what's turning women off.

- Less problems

And over all the interactions were easier. There was more willingness from both parties to avoid problems. There was less victimization, less accusation, less power wrestling. Well maybe its not surprising why that was after reading all of the above, but I'm still dumb founded by it.

But what an amazing contrast and what a difference! You'd think that people are people and in theory should be the same regardless of where they are from. For me at least that theory did not live up to scrutiny.

It just sounds to me like non western women have lower standards and western women have a higher sense of entitlement when they look for a guy.

And you just want a girl that likes/accepts you.

[ecojeanne]

mish i'm gonna touch on all of your points;

materialism

yes both men and women born in the western world are definitely more focused on luxuries these days which, at times can be sickening. however i would like to point out that i dated a chinese man and he was extremely materialistic and brand names were his life, and many of his friends in china and past gf's (asian) were exactly the same. i put it down to the fact that it is seen as a 'success' and a sign of personal development to own the best brands and therefore a sign of status that chinese people in particular haven't had until recent years. i can't speak for the whole of china or asia, but i have a sneaking suspicion it applies to a lot of asian, non western people (western-who take these things for granted and don't necessarily see them as a status symbol as asians do and therefore don't crave them as much) speaking generally, of course. thankfully this recession has toned people's attitudes down a bit.

in regard to how much money you spend on a person-well you may have the wrong end of the stick..... they may be looking for more romance. it may seem like that requires more money, but man, no it doesn't. it requires effort and thought. for example: a guy i knew recently asked me out, (i've known him a long time and he is my older brothers best friend) he decided to bring to a lovely restaurant in the city, one that i thought was soooo thoughtful because of a history i had with the place. anyway he rang 2 hours before the date and pretty much said he couldn’t go into town as it would be too much effort and would it be ok to go to the local pub (where everyone he and i knew would know our business) and we would have probably got involved in chat with others. thoughtless-so i cancelled-it had NOTHING to do with how much it would cost. he might say otherwise though to make himself feel better.

Lingo

maybe you're gettin' old? hehe, c'mon really? that’s a real issue? i could say that maybe having an issue about this is snobbish???


Self Centeredness

it's true people are self centered, but they don't usually show their true selves till later, but you can;t deny that you are bothered by that because you want your say too? maybe you need to be more generous? because surely it's all about spending time together in whatever circumstance, as long as you're together. i find that women in general (both western and non western) are quite self sacrificing in this regard. asian women with a western man do tend to do whatever the western guy says after all you're western (you're a status symbol but just wait a little longer and eventually their true selves will shine through too).

Power struggle

look i do think that women have lost their IQ in regard to this. women need to be clever enough to make the man think he is in charge. the problem these days is that men are not men anymore. they seem to have lost their ability to make decisions. gone is the day a man sends flowers, picks the girl up and orders at a restaurant for her. he's too scared to. believe it or not , women DO like that. with all the 'complaining' that they may do, they secretly wish a man would take control and protect them. i think your problem is thinking too much and trying to be PC. women don't want PC, they want romance and they want attention and they love to be told how beautiful they look. it may seem self centered and artificial but psychologically works and makes the relationship so much nicer. there is no power struggle when romance is involved. and if they don't appreciate the romance then, dump them. women are actually very easy to please, just ask gribble. asian women roll over because you being western are a status symbol imo but give it time and you will still have the same problems (btw i do think it's your problem not theirs no offense).

Lack of understanding and support

women DO want to understand. that's the problem. women analyze EVERYTHING. the mis-communication comes with the fact that you speak MAN and we speak WOMAN. women want to know how you felt, not how to solve the problem or the technicalities of the problem. women sympathize and focus on the emotions of the situation. men speak in terms of a technical problem that needs to be FIXED. men avoid exposing their emotions and tend to turn issues back on to the women...then women complain about being taken for granted-when really all you had to do was say exactly how you were feeling emotionally. once you get that then you should realize women can't solve the problem they can only express how they feel or understand feelings which in effect solves the problem. speaking generally, of course. asian women are exactly the same, it's just they hold it back until later because you are a status symbol-no offense.

[NeoSeminole]

vashti says:

"It strikes me as odd that so many men need their women to feign submissiveness in order to feel like a man. Women of all cultures learn how to wield their power, if not blatantly, then covertly. You can't expect 50% of the world population to be happy about not having any autonomy."

weak men need a women to "feign submissiveness" to make themselves feel manly. Strong men want a woman who knows her role and won't tolerate inequality (e.g. girls who think it's okay to share the 'girl chores' while the man does all the guy chores).

[Mish]

Power struggle

look i do think that women have lost their IQ in regard to this. women need to be clever enough to make the man think he is in charge. the problem these days is that men are not men anymore. they seem to have lost their ability to make decisions. gone is the day a man sends flowers, picks the girl up and orders at a restaurant for her. he's too scared to. believe it or not , women DO like that. with all the 'complaining' that they may do, they secretly wish a man would take control and protect them. i think your problem is thinking too much and trying to be PC. women don't want PC, they want romance and they want attention and they love to be told how beautiful they look. it may seem self centered and artificial but psychologically works and makes the relationship so much nicer. there is no power struggle when romance is involved. and if they don't appreciate the romance then, dump them. women are actually very easy to please, just ask gribble. asian women roll over because you being western are a status symbol imo but give it time and you will still have the same problems (btw i do think it's your problem not theirs no offense).

Lack of understanding and support

women DO want to understand. that's the problem. women analyze EVERYTHING. the mis-communication comes with the fact that you speak MAN and we speak WOMAN. women want to know how you felt, not how to solve the problem or the technicalities of the problem. women sympathize and focus on the emotions of the situation. men speak in terms of a technical problem that needs to be FIXED. men avoid exposing their emotions and tend to turn issues back on to the women...then women complain about being taken for granted-when really all you had to do was say exactly how you were feeling emotionally. once you get that then you should realize women can't solve the problem they can only express how they feel or understand feelings which in effect solves the problem. speaking generally, of course. asian women are exactly the same, it's just they hold it back until later because you are a status symbol-no offense.

I get what you are saying on the last two eco. I guess my charge is directed both towards men and women in the west. The actions and reactions of both have created a certain equilibrium on which the behaviours of both sexes as a template are based on.

To the people who say (not you eco) that liking non-western girls is due to their submissiveness, I have to say this stereotype is very misguided. I think this stereotype is based on some movies or books going back 500 years, the women I've known from over there are not like that. It's not about submissiveness, it's about treatment. The treatment over all, support, understanding, is much more visible and potent. To those who want to continue viewing this from this stereotype, that's fine, I'll chalk it up to another example of people not wanting to listen.


I'm interested to see people's views on the last post I made about the family connections and how that influences behaviour. Because I think that has a lot to do with my point of view at the moment.

[Mish]

Is he? That's not the impression I get from reading the original post.

But why is there no middle ground here? Either a woman is a self-centered drama queen or a submissive doormat? From what Mish posted I think he's just trying to find a woman who shares his values, possesses a certain amount empathy and understanding for her partner, and won't make him want to tear out his hair.

Thank you Starbie. That's exactly it! Of course I want a partner who shares my values and who when necessary can come to and agreement and show understanding. And what I found through experience is women from over there still have those qualities. They still look for a partner for life, they still want a good family. I don't want to be with someone who is subject to mundane flip flops, I'm interested in longevity. In the west where every second marriage breaks down due to completely avoidable trust or boredom issues that we see time and time again here on LF I feel this longevity is somehow harder to achieve. And I keep on thinking that's because the stock is different.

Mish, as for classifying these types of women by region, I'm not sure that it's the most successful way to "filter out" your dating prospects as there are so many factors that shape a person's personality other than ethnic culture, ie., parents, upbringing (rich or poor), socialization by peer groups, etc., And I personally haven't seen the patterns you mention in my female friends (western and non-western).

However if it's working for you, then I don't see a problem. I guess the only harm is the chance that you might pass up a woman who has everything you're seeking just because she doesn't come from the right country.

You're right. This classification is obviously flawed because like I mentioned before, there are a lot of wonderful girls that I personally know who have all of those great qualities I described earlier. Maybe I subscribe them to minority because all the good ones I know are taken. I can see the obvious flaw of extending this stereotype to all women born in the west. Due to like you said, the chance of me missing out.

I suppose the reason I bring this up is because now I have a gf who was born overseas and I have a chance to compare my current experience with my past ones. I try to find reasons why this relationship is going so well where others at the same point in time already had problems. I guess all of these things I find is what hits me. This thread gives me an opportunity to analyze my thoughts and feelings on the matter.