christians.

[MVPlaya]

God is a spirit, not a person.
Asking who created God is like asking who greated Oxygen.

For a while there was some ridiculous evangelist who toured college campuses to debate evolutionists and he came to my campus. One of my professors at Berkeley was a paleoanthropologist, studying evolution and dinosaurs, and my favorite exchange to summarize my views of the utility of Intelligent Design versus Evolution was this comment he made that completely stumped the evangelist.

He pulled out a book of dinosaur fossils and alligator remains and said roughly, "this is my life's work, I can't say I've answered life's great questions, but I have added to the understanding of the fossil record and better our knowledge of alligators and their history. You have your Ph.D and your formal education, but what have you contributed to human understanding?"

And thats the summary of it, Intelligent Design and the usage of religion to answer questions of physics has adds almost nothing to our understanding of physics, evolution, or biology.

There have been many great religious theoreticians and thinkers, but the usage of religion to answer the questions of physics has always been shortsighted and quickly discarded.

Thats why asking what created oxygen is different from who created God. Asking the questions of physics leads you somewhere and improves your understanding of the universe, but going into a religious breakdown of physics leads you absolutely nowhere.

[Sanctuary]

This is a cop-out. Using God to try to answer who created the universe just externalizes the logical dilemma unto God, and then cops out by saying "well we can't understand it, its God we're talking about." which is no different from saying "well we can't understand it, the universe is too complicated."

I never said our misunderstanding of the creation of the universe is a cop-out for God's existence. If you follow my train of thought to the next line, what I'm saying is that you can't fully close the door on the existence of 'God' because the possibility that something (perhaps not the Christian God) out there does exist.

Also, for the record - I'm probably a bigger atheist than you are and I don't really believe anything I'm saying. I just like arguing. lol!

[Sanctuary]

sanctuary, i am in a ltr and have been for a long time. the reason i know this person loves me is because he is with me. he cooks for me. he stands by me when i'm upset. he makes me laugh. he does a lot of tangible things that show me that he loves me. god does not do those things. gods people have caused a lot of pain in my life and the lives of others. therefore how is it possible for me to suspect that he loves me?

also, nobody knows how the universe began, or why. therefore people have to make things up like "god did it" so they don't feel so clueless and insignificant.

When you were younger, your parents loved you but surely you must have also felt that they cause pain in your life. It's only as you get older do you realize how your parents had only the best of intentions for you in mind. Could it be possible that God indeed has a plan for you but you don't fully comprehend it (because what human can truly fathom the grand scheme of the creator?) therefore you shrug it off as an intent to hurt you?

I'm not saying our misunderstanding about the origins of the universe is evidence for the existence of God; I'm saying there's so much about this world that we don't understand, and the possibility for the existence of something is there so you shouldn't discard it so easily.

[MVPlaya]

I never said our misunderstanding of the creation of the universe is a cop-out for God's existence. If you follow my train of thought to the next line, what I'm saying is that you can't fully close the door on the existence of 'God' because the possibility that something (perhaps not the Christian God) out there does exist.

Also, for the record - I'm probably a bigger atheist than you are and I don't really believe anything I'm saying. I just like arguing. lol!

I understand your train of thought, but it is still a bad argument.

You are basically using the fog of our understanding to imply that something is possible outside the realms of our present knowledge. And, you know, everything is possible. It is possible that the universe is not really expanding as much as eating up a larger universe directly outside it, and that that larger universe is filled with candy and unicorns. You should not fully close the door on this idea.

It is also possible that no one in this world exists but you and that this is an elaborate illusion, you think you are talking to me but you are not.

It is also possible that our universe is actually a computer simulation and that we don't actually exist, we are simply programmed bits of code acting as we are supposed to, under the impression that we really exist and have free will.

It is possible that time has frozen and that this exact second of time is the only second you have ever experienced and will ever experience, and that everything you remember previous to this is a false memory, but you are simply not capable of distinguishing it.

It is possible that a God created this universe and instantly died.

It is possible that we are all currently in hell, and no one bothered to tell us.

It is possible that I'm God and I forced myself to live thousands of life, presently in my current carnation, only as a chance to entertain myself through an infinity of time that I'm forced to wade through, and that I go through these lives with no recollection of my past so as to not ruin the fun.

I mean, I could go on forever. I don't see the value in a claim as "you should not close yourself off to this." I'm perfectly comfortable closing myself off to this until I am proven wrong.

[Sanctuary]

I mean, I could go on forever. I don't see the value in a claim as "you should not close yourself off to this." I'm perfectly comfortable closing myself off to this until I am proven wrong.

Lol, that is the very same argument I use all the time and it feels strange to be on the other side.

You're right - intrinsically, there is no value to be derived from leaving the door open. And yes, you can make the pink unicorns and spaghetti monster arguments.

We can never know anything for sure, but i can say that I know certain things can be true with a much higher degree of probability than others.

For instance, this:

It is also possible that our universe is actually a computer simulation and that we don't actually exist...

..is much more likely than this:

It is possible that the universe is not really expanding as much as eating up a larger universe directly outside it, and that that larger universe is filled with candy and unicorns. You should not fully close the door on this idea.

And the notion of 'God', while not high up there on the "things that are probably true" list, can still possibly exist.

It's just an illogical assumption to completely close the door on this belief.

[MVPlaya]

Yes, but no one ever completely closes the door on a belief. I am perfectly comfortable calling myself an atheist. It does not mean that if Moses showed up to my front door step, had a tea party with me on Ocean Beach and then parted the Pacific Ocean that I would still be like: photoshopped! It just means that nothing I have heard up until this point has given the idea any more credence in my mind.

I think the idea of god is utter nonsense, but if someone can prove me wrong, they have proven me wrong. Its just that, based on 2,000 years of history: you know and I know that no one is going to be proving us wrong.

[Sanctuary]

It does not mean that if Moses showed up to my front door step, had a tea party with me on Ocean Beach and then parted the Pacific Ocean that I would still be like: photoshopped!

lol this guys got jokes

[newdude]

The picture with jesus and the diet colas made me crack up, if you think that is so offensive to god you serioulsy need to lighten up its just a joke

[Petit Papillon]

I`ll just say... WTF people ? How can people be so crazy to belive in that lol [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVIPF_PmHuQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVIPF_PmHuQ[/ame]

PS. This guy is a cheater,should be in jail ! (And he`s pedo fo sure )

[Gigabitch]

religion has caused mass suffering in the world. people have died suffering, been tortured, our planet has suffered all because of religion. it's not just christians, it's all the religions.

All the Abrahamic religions, at least.

At least buddhism had a good concept to start out with.

Yeah, it's pretty hard to find an aggro Buddhist.

Now back to the point :-P I know what you're saying, believe me, but in reality religion isn't causing any of these things, mankind causes these things. Religion is just a moral shelter to hide behind while they commit these atrocities.

And this is why it will never go away. People suck. Religion is just one way in which people suck. It doesn't have to be, but look at how many people subscribe to a belief that says that everyone else is an offense to God and will go to hell. There ARE religions out there that don't sustain hatefulness and hypocrisy, but they're pretty rare.

If they are causing pain then they are not following God's word. They are going against them. Anyone who follows His word does not act like that. There are those people in the Christian religion who don't follow His word.

Oh, my. I've read the Bible. Every word. It is NOT a book of peace.

It's just an illogical assumption to completely close the door on this belief.

Then logically you have to leave yourself open to EVERY belief. Would you say that you are open to every belief?

[misombra]

sanctuary already admitted he is athiest so he's just talking shit lol.

check out that ted haggard guy. hugely famous for his evanglical preachings but then he had to quit because it came out that he was having a gay affair!

[Gribble]

It absolutely is logical to close the door to religion--with the caveat that the door swings open the instant you have some kind of evidence that goes beyond what you feel in your heart or what you experienced while you were completely alone.

[cameron180]

All the Abrahamic religions, at least.



Yeah, it's pretty hard to find an aggro Buddhist.



And this is why it will never go away. People suck. Religion is just one way in which people suck. It doesn't have to be, but look at how many people subscribe to a belief that says that everyone else is an offense to God and will go to hell. There ARE religions out there that don't sustain hatefulness and hypocrisy, but they're pretty rare.



Oh, my. I've read the Bible. Every word. It is NOT a book of peace.



Then logically you have to leave yourself open to EVERY belief. Would you say that you are open to every belief?

Christian Universalism is one of those rare religions that has no self righteousness nor hate.

I'm actually a Christian Universalist. I believe that everybody's going to be saved & go to heaven.

It's the belief that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world & that His death for the sins of the world & resurrection were applied to ALL & not just those who believe in Him as Savior.

That's if there is a heaven, which I know not everyone believes there is a heaven but if there is one then I believe we're all going.

So to me it doesn't matter if you are a Christian, Jew, Buddist, Muslim, Atheist or even Satanist, God loves you the same & you are going to heaven.

Christian Universalism is a small sect of Christianity. It's not that popular.

[Sanctuary]

Then logically you have to leave yourself open to EVERY belief. Would you say that you are open to every belief?

Yes, you can say I'm open to every belief; read what I said to MVP about probability of truth.

It absolutely is logical to close the door to religion--with the caveat that the door swings open the instant you have some kind of evidence that goes beyond what you feel in your heart or what you experienced while you were completely alone.

So the door is closed but you're saying there's still a possibility that it can be opened. And I'm saying because of that possibility - no matter how infinitesimally small it is (so long as it isn't zero) - it isn't logical to say you can fully close the door.

[Illusional]

the thing is, when people look hard enough, they always find what they are looking for..

this is why i don't bother looking for god. i already know that he doesn't exist.... except for those special appearances on buttered toast

raverboy