In Praise of Traditional Women

[ecojeanne]

why are *men* always talkin about this shite about the trad woman. the problem with this issue which has been brought up in the past is that women now have to work along with their partners to survive. back in the 'good ol' days' men worked and women didn't. women now compete with men. what has happened is that society has forced many women to adopt manly traits which of course then spills over into their personal lives. i'm not about to start complaining about men. the whole debate is moot. there is no going back in time.

too many people value money and working in a corporation than using their own talents to set up on their own for the good of the community-when people stop being so crazy about these pieces of paper is the day you see a more relaxed woman emerge

[IndiReloaded]

Unfortunately, the 'traditional' woman was also much more susceptible to various abuses that come from a large difference in power. You can still see this in certain demographics, even in our 'advanced' society.

I don't think any person should depend overmuch on another human being, children being the exception to this. And look at the conditions many of those must endure.

There is value in the self-respect that comes from self-sufficiency. Of course, one might argue that 'self-sufficiency' in our present society is a sham. But, assuming we aren't talking about disappearing into the bush someplace to live off the land, I think everyone should at least be given the tools to survive on their own for basic food, shelter, and the right to not be exploited sexually or otherwise. Education, healthcare, access to basic shelter and clean food & water. Safety from violence.

For those who want such, I believe man-woman should form a partnership. Each helping the other with strengths where the other is weak. The whole should be greater than the parts, each person focussing on the things they are good at to the benefit of both. But the basic self-development I mention should come first. Being in a relationship/marriage should be a choice w/eyes wide open, not due to some survival necessity or societal coercion. I also think that it should be much harder to both marry and divorce and be allowed to have children. As we see here all the time, humans who aren't developed enough themselves often run into serious problems when they add the complication of another person's psyche into the equation. White Knight syndrome, etc.

So, again, I think setting this up as a man-woman problem is really short sighted. Its a human development problem. The more we understand this and focus resources to help people become better people, the better off everyone will be. This feminist movement thing is just growing pains indicative of the larger problem. These 'radical' chicks who hate men are just as stupid as the wife-beaters, the child abusers, etc who are missing the larger point.

My two cents summary of this whole issue.

[Aeradalia]

... when people stop being so crazy about these pieces of paper is the day you see a more relaxed woman emerge

Why do women have to wait for the 'perfect' time when everything is favorable for her to be more relaxed... to be the best she can be?

Life doesn't work that way... if you want to be a better person... if you want to be a better woman and not be contorted into something you don't want to be... then you're going to have to endure the stress and make an effort.

Plenty of men resist the urge to become the cowering neutered males that societal pressures are forcing on them.

Why should a female not be able to resist the urge to become masculine-emulating shells?

Yes, the environment we are in can have a profound effect on an individual... but that individual has to accept those effects on some level before they will allow themselves to change. Essentially, it's still up to you to respond to your environment... up to you to allow yourself to be shaped by it.

[Mish]

women now compete with men. what has happened is that society has forced many women to adopt manly traits which of course then spills over into their personal lives.

That's what I think happened as well.

But the funny thing is that a lot of women from traditional cultures have to do the exact same thing. Only they have it a lot worse. They have to succumb to their traditional roles AND at the same time work to make a living. There aren't many fundamentalist traditional places left (outside countries like Saudi Arabia) where women aren't allowed to work completely. Yet, they don't turn into aggressive vindictive masculine victims out for people's blood. They accept their role, their circumstances and just try to be the best they can be. I think it's just so much more in the western character to whinge and complain, create problems and be generally dissatisfied.

Though at the end of the day, the contrast between these two types of women is really stark. And I don't blame some of the western men for seeking women from traditional cultures, I think it has little to do with men wanting to be pleased and a lot more to do with the amount of respect and support they get from these women compared to the non traditional ones. Respect, support and understanding, these should be the next stage of evolution in our society. They really should teach these things at School.

[CocoChanel]

Yes, that would be nepotism of the non-productive sort. However, if you had a cousin who you knew would be brilliant as a manager and so you promoted her, (probably not to manager, but something that would let you train her toward it), that would be productive nepotism.

The trouble with blatant nepotism is that it actually causes a lot of resentment, never mind actual problems with company operations if they are unqualified. So only very stupid managers do this. Ones who probably shouldn't be in those positions themselves.

A higher level of nepotism might be a corporate exec who hears 'through the grapevine' that a new exec position is opening up. They suggest to the board their friend who they know is a great fit for the position but probably wouldn't get hired based on a cold CV submission. That kind of thing happens a fair bit.

Oooh ok. I get it! Thank you for explaining.

[vashti]

I think it's just so much more in the western character to whinge and complain, create problems and be generally dissatisfied.

.

Again, the only people i ever see whining and complaining are males. Can you refer me to a thread such as this where a woman was complaining about being supressed by men? and yet, I've multiple threads made by males that assert as much.

[Mish]

Again, the only people i ever see whining and complaining are males. Can you refer me to a thread such as this where a woman was complaining about being supressed by men? and yet, I've multiple threads made by males that assert as much.

There were lots of threads where women complained about their role in society Vash, I'm not going to waste time searching for them just to prove this to you. Just trust me on this, I'm speaking from my personal experience with women at least three of my exs told me they were confused about what a woman's role is and that they generally felt unhappy as a woman and complained that men had it so much better therefore as a group they deserve mistreatment. At least three women (out of six) I dated this year alone had similar issues. It's pretty widespread. I don't know why you are unaware of this, maybe the women you associate with are older and more mature / developed, then women in my age group that I dated.

[vashti]

It might be a regional problem. Or, it might be the type of woman you attract. And no, I don't remember any threads that make this assertion made by women, although there have been a couple asserting that women - as a gender - have it "harder". Still, overall, I think the vast majority of women are glad they are women, and still like men.

[ecojeanne]

sometimes i wonder are we really moving backwards rather than forward. the fact that people *need* to now be taught these things. it's almost like creating a sythetic society-we have to rely on the educational system to teach us to care and have respect for each other?! it's practically orwellian

[Mish]

It might be a regional problem. Or, it might be the type of woman you attract. And no, I don't remember any threads that make this assertion made by women, although there have been a couple asserting that women - as a gender - have it "harder". Still, overall, I think the vast majority of women are glad they are women, and still like men.

I've seen plenty. I'll keep an eye out for you.

But I guess what really opened my eyes to this is the amount of understanding and support I am getting at the moment from the girl I'm seeing compared to the girls born here that I've dated before. I've suddenly realized what I've been missing from a woman all this time.

[CAM]

Still, overall, I think the vast majority of women are glad they are women, and still like men.

I may have taken too seriously what I learned in graduate school and have seen at professional conferences, which continually reinforce in my mind that most women despise men.

Very likely my mistake in assuming that the elites in a profession represent the whole world.

The result for me is that I'm torn in several directions at once. Finding traditional women appealing, yet also finding the independent woman (of grad school) appealing.

On another dimension, I find myself wanting to be in a relationship with a woman and yet gun-shy due to the berating one receives in the profession and in grad school where you are constantly exposed to literature about how women hate men.

Result: I see a nice, and probably a bit shy, woman in the gym who is casually following me from machine to machine, keeping within my eye contact and yet, I make it a point of not talking or making eye contact to her unless she takes the lead and talks to me first or at least smiles.

At the end of the day...all of us (men and women, boys and girls)...we must admit to ourselves...that most of our problems in either establishing or maintaining loving relationships are either wholly or partially self-created. If we don't like what we get, then we'd better get what we like. And, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what are general patterns in the gender war or culture...it just means we may have to look harder to get what we want. Once we get it, then everything else is largely superfluous.

[chump4u]

[QUOTE=vashti;493238]Again, the only people i ever see whining and complaining are males. Can you refer me to a thread such as this where a woman was complaining about being supressed by men? and yet, I've multiple threads made by males that assert as much.[/QUOTE


Seems to me that the largest part of the women in this thread were whining and complaining-- about men who dare to think that "traditional" women may have had a better grasp of human reality than many "modern" women.

[vashti]

Seems to me that the largest part of the women in this thread were whining and complaining-- about men who dare to think that "traditional" women may have had a better grasp of human reality than many "modern" women.

Nah - what I noticed were modern women feeling attacked by men, and therefore being defensive.

Honestly, I am probably the most "traditional" woman posting on this forum, and I think most of what's been posted is nonsense. I am glad traditional women are valued by some men - I just wish it wasn't because these men chose creepy women to date. Come on guys, take some responsibility for what you choose.

[IndiReloaded]

Come on guys and girls, take some responsibility for what you choose.

This is what it boils down to for me.

[Mish]

I just wish it wasn't because these men chose creepy women to date. Come on guys, take some responsibility for what you choose.

How can you not choose to date creepy women if they are everywhere? The women I dated came from everywhere you can think of, university, local neighborhood functions, work, concerts, community programs, dance lessons, sport, friends, meetup, you name it. They were the women you see everywhere and you'd think they are normal until you start dating them. And even the ones I didn't date, at work there are at least five women with the same symptoms. I have nothing to do with them I just hear them moan about the same things to the woman seating next to me. If you are accusing me (or us) of consistently picking the wrong women then it's highly coincidental that all of these examples with such a high degree of variance tend to revolve around me don't you think?

Don't shoot the messenger. Think about why these problems occur instead of blaming the ones showing that there is a wider issue.