Apologists for Evil

[ecojeanne]

violence never works even for the stupid governments that use minions to fight for them. martin luther and gandhi , why don't people use their noggin like them. frikin stooopid ETA and governments. yep glad you're safe petit

[Petit Papillon]

Well I don`t understand ETA and groups like this. I mean Basques get money from governmet, they get military protection and they are a part of spanish population ,so why the hell they want so bad to be independent?If they are so dumb to do terrorist attacks, I can`t see them leading an independent country. ETA is so dumb enough to think that if they kill the king they will get independency... It will be even worst for them.

[ecojeanne]

Well I don`t understand ETA and groups like this. I mean Basques get money from governmet, they get military protection and they are a part of spanish population ,so why the hell they want so bad to be independent?If they are so dumb to do terrorist attacks, I can`t see them leading an independent country. ETA is so dumb enough to think that if they kill the king they will get independency... It will be even worst for them.

i agree but i'm sure there is more to the story, there always is. they used to be free to make their own laws i guess and they want that power back for the basque region. i think i read somewhere that they are actually a different race and culture compared to the rest of spain. i don;t know the history but suffice to say there is always more to the story behind a groups violence, altho in the end meaningless. governments do what they want when they want, they are worse than the groups themselves

[Petit Papillon]

i agree but i'm sure there is more to the story, there always is. they used to be free to make their own laws i guess and they want that power back for the basque region. i think i read somewhere that they are actually a different race and culture compared to the rest of spain. i don;t know the history but suffice to say there is always more to the story behind a groups violence, altho in the end meaningless. governments do what they want when they want, they are worse than the groups themselves

Maybe but they don`t kill innocent people. About basques, they have their culture,their language, but for example mallorquins , they also have own language (really different than spanish) and they could also say that tey want independency.
ETA at the beginning was fighting against general Franco. At that times, they had no right, they couldn`t speak their language etc. But now, they are free . They can do what they want plus they have support from the spanish government, so wat could they want more? And it`s really not the reason to kill people... There is so many regions of different countries that could also fight for independency. But what for? If they have peace and normal life? I understand if they would be treated bad, closed in prisons etc. But they aren`t, so again I don`t see any reason to kill people.

[ecojeanne]

Maybe but they don`t kill innocent people. .

was that comment in reference to governments NOT killing innocents?

*robotic voice*: 'YOU have been successfully brainwashed'

me dear

[Petit Papillon]

was that comment in reference to governments NOT killing innocents?

*robotic voice*: 'YOU have been successfully brainwashed'

me dear

I mean they don`t go on the street and do not shot to the people . And they don`t kill their own citizens. I`m not talking about their politics in foreign countries.
If You know some fact about spanish government killing spanish people (nowadays) , tell me . I`m listening

[ecojeanne]

^^what about when the basque region was taken over in the first place and then they plonked themselves as leaders...i'm pretty sure to gain power one has to kill. to kill is wrong, end of story no matter who decides who is getting killed and for what purpose (usually for 'security' fear is a great tool the leaders use on the masses of sheeple)

[IndiReloaded]

It's not a matter of being correct Indi, it's a matter of explaining that statistics (especialy those related to crimes) are a fairly unreliable source to base arguments such as this one on.

Reality and statistics are not in agreement in this case.

Ygg is correct. These stats are not the right support for your argument. Its just a form of 'appeal to authority', and these sources are weak. Those of us who do research know better, but if you want confirmation, PM Cam. He will tell you the problems with this kind of data, he deals with stats a lot.

Pretty sure I agree with you Ygg^.

[IndiReloaded]

You guys live in la-la land. If I saw a guy walking down the street in a KKK robe/hat w/a swastika on his arm, I'd be phoning the police. He's free to express his culture, I'm free to make sure he's not going to be pulling any shit in my community.

It all comes down to respect. But a lot of these cultures expect that their beliefs are respected *at the expense* of someone elses. Like that muslim guy who wouldn't shake my hand. I was a bit shocked at the time at his explanation (that he might find himself excessively attracted to me--totally inappropriate). My husband, tho, almost asked them to leave. He was pissed that someone would come into our home in our home country and insist we follow *their* rules.

When we visit other countries, we follow their customs in public. It is how civilized people act.

Blue might remember the story about the arab student who cried foul when police insisted he not wear his turban into a controlled area b/c it contained a fairly large knife. I stand completely behind that officers decision. If the young man didn't want to follow the rules, then he could choose to stay home & wear his turban there.

If these people want to wear their garb/express their culture in their homes, fine. But no need to shove it in our face in OUR country. Mutual respect, not one-way. We have been far to tolerant of this kind of thing, I agree with Pat Condell about that.

[IndiReloaded]

People are just too damned sensitive about this stuff. Look at the cop who arrested the Harvard prof. The ones that went and had beer with Obama.

The officer *taught* racial sensitivity courses! The black professor (who studies Racial Profiling--no bias there!) cried foul b/c he was breaking into a house at night.

Turned out to be his house, but WTF? If it HAD been a break-in, then this prof would have been grateful for the capture & arrest.

From everything I've read, the police officer sounded quite reasonable. The prof was belligerent, arrogant and doing something that looked illegal. The cop did his job. He's not a mind reader; how was he supposed to know the house belonged to the prof?

I guess some ID was eventually produced, but not before the prof shot his mouth off. I would have arrested him too at that point. In fact, he's lucky he wasn't shot. Good for the cop, I say.

[bluesummer]

2) In Western world women still wear burqa, hijab and so on...yet they are free to do whatever they want? Agree? Come on nobody can stop anyone from doing anything in North America.

No, I disagree. Just because you live in a country that allows more freedoms, it doesn't mean you're allowed to defy your culture/religion. There are women living in North America and wearing burqa/hijab because their parents or spouse make them. I know this, because I know people like this. The husbands are usually ignorant, arrogant pricks that treat their wives like possesions. What are the women going to do? Tell the police? Complain to a human rights tribunal? Hell no, they'd be beaten to within an inch of their lives.

I think Pat Condell's main point was that western society is pussy-footing around these religious groups too much. They expect us to bend to their will, and still let them fit into our society. Our society is what it is and we shouldn't be apologizing for it or for being critical of values that we don't embrace in this part of the world. Oppression of women is NOT okay here, we should NOT have to accept it or keep quiet about it. If they want to do that crap, keep it in their own society where it IS accepted.

[Mish]

If these people want to wear their garb/express their culture in their homes, fine. But no need to shove it in our face in OUR country. Mutual respect, not one-way. We have been far to tolerant of this kind of thing, I agree with Pat Condell about that.

What people wear is not a subject to policing unless they wear a hate crime symbol or are naked. You can't force people to not wear clothing you might object to, that goes completely against the freedom of expression the basis our countries are founded on and indeed what makes our countries great. If you disagree with certain aspects with a particular culture, raise those objections and target those aspects individually and head on, but don't discriminate against people simply because of what they wear.

If you want to talk about respect being a one-way street, well it has been a no-way street for too long. We've been shoving our promiscuous, consumerist and greedy culture down their throats for centuries, raising armies to occupy their homelands, rape and pillage them, don't pretend we are Mr. and Mrs. Nice Guys when it comes to cultural and moral high ground, we (collectively) have done and continue to do some horrendous things around the world, don't pretend for a second that they are the only ones and we have some kind of a moral superiority to condemn them. This is exactly why respect is a two-way street because it's about the perspective you are looking from. At the point in time we are in, we can't afford to look down on anyone from an artificial high horse. I agree that there are a lot of things wrong in this world, but don't use it as a hammer to beat people over the head with in throes of self righteousness. No one wants bad things in their culture, if you discuss the unfortunate aspects of someone's culture do it from a position of respect and mutual understanding EVEN if they don't because IT IS possible to change other people's behavior by changing your reaction to them, make them see the wrong for themselves and make them themselves want to make positive changes instead of being defensive. You will find it a lot more difficult to change people for the better if you start bulldozing through them.

[Mish]

If I saw a guy walking down the street in a KKK robe/hat w/a swastika on his arm, I'd be phoning the police. He's free to express his culture, I'm free to make sure he's not going to be pulling any shit in my community.

Because I'm sick of these silly comparisons, yes and you should. Because everyone knows what a Klan robe and a swastika stand for. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that they are symbols of execution and racial hatred.

BUT

What if you saw a guy wear regular clothing, would you be calling police as well? Why not? His clothing was made in a sweat shop in a third world country and children died making it, surely if Hijab is symbol of rape then his clothing is a symbol of slavery and child labour. So at which point do you stop, where do you draw the line? Are you going to condemn and illegalize everything remotely morally objectionalbe (and not wear anything), be hypocritical and only target SOME morally objectionable clothing while ignoring the rest or draw the line somewhere?

[ecojeanne]

I guess some ID was eventually produced, but not before the prof shot his mouth off. I would have arrested him too at that point. In fact, he's lucky he wasn't shot. Good for the cop, I say.

i know what cops are like especially in the US. it was a power play between the two of them. it's amazing what one can get away with when one agrees with the cops rant about how stupid they are when the cop is having his rant like a father would do to a child teaching them a lesson. i've agreed and agreed over and over and got away with not having to listen to the power speech they give. yeah the guy was stupid for thinking he was an equal citizen to the cop.

[IndiReloaded]

Of course it was a power issue Eco. Duh.

Any person that has the power to arrest me and/or shoot me gets my respect. At least until I am actually in a position to do something about it.

The prof was being an idiot in this situation. Probably tired b/c he was jet lagged, but no excuse.

How long did you live in the states for, Eco?