martial arts discussion

[hohol]

hi everybody
i was just wondering about the general opinion about martial arts most people nowadays think they are useless but the problem is that they have been changed to sport and lost their real goal so do you think martial art should be taught like what they used to be or just like a sport?

[Junket]

hi everybody
i was just wondering about the general opinion about martial arts most people nowadays think they are useless but the problem is that they have been changed to sport and lost their real goal so do you think martial art should be taught like what they used to be or just like a sport?

You really love that bored emoticon.

[hohol]

yea a lot cause it's the face i make all the time

[Illusional]

i think that it should still be taught, but depending on how you want to use it. the times are changing and so is everything else.

raverboy

[Petit Papillon]

yea a lot cause it's the face i make all the time

Today I saw emo with such face on a bus stop And yesterday in the bus another emo ,with exactly the same face... Hey !! Are You emooo?

[hohol]

no i'm not emoooooooo

[IndiReloaded]

There are still some fairly traditional MA out there. Aikido (especially yoshinkan) is very traditional and doesn't involve sport or competition. Iaido (sword drawing) is another. Their focus tends to be more about controlling self than beating the snot out of others. Not that certain other disciplines won't say so also (its great marketing material, after all), but then you actually watch what they do and see the discrepancy.

Like anything tho, its really about the sensei. Some are great marketers, but their teaching leaves much to be desired. Some are the opposite. In fact, the *really* good sensei are the ones who are solely interested in promoting their "art" and grooming good students, not about making money & competition.

[Lite]

There are still some fairly traditional MA out there. Aikido (especially yoshinkan) is very traditional and doesn't involve sport or competition. Iaido (sword drawing) is another.

You don't even have to go traditional for that. You can go for mixed martial arts even.

Basically what they're saying is they want to avoid "The McDojo" You know, pay us $300 and we'll give you a black belt in tai chi, without ever telling you or showing you the actual martial (war-like) applications for it.

I once stood beside some tai-chi people and started working (slowly) through one of my Silat jurus. When asked what I was doing, I told them I was obviously doing tai chi, because I was doing it slowly.

When the instructor became irritated, I asked him what the martial application was for what he was showing, he told me it didn't have one, it was purely for meditation and control practice. So I laughed at him and walked off.

I found Aikido to be hollow and actually kind of useless. Sure, they teach you how to hold a sword, and deflect attacks, and redirect energy given. Which several other martial arts do. However they never took it into a practical approach. The never broke down each kata (I forget the word they used at the moment for the grouping of movements for practice) and showed how you could take meta-movements and flow them together into a real-world application.

Perhaps this was just my school that I attended, but my choices were limited.

A lot of Kung Fu is very... Not self-defense oriented either anymore. Lots of pretty, not much nitty-gritty. Maybe see if you can find a Jeet Kun Do instructor nearby? Silat is a bit hard to come by, but very in-your-face, and very...full contact.

I dunno, I guess I break martial arts training down in the following manner.

1) Be aware enough to not be there.
2) If you are there, leave.
3) If you cannot leave, hurt someone, then leave.
4) If you have to protect someone, tell them to leave, hurt someone, then leave.

And when you're all done, look at your choices and figure out how to not be there ever again.

As far as I'm concerned I hope I never have to use my martial arts training beyond 1 and maybe 2. I've unfortunately been in 4, and managed to go from looking calm and harmless to incredibly pissed off and going to stab someone in under 15 seconds. Then applied #1 to that particular location.

I'm the guy who walks onto an airplane armed to the teeth. I can and will hurt someone if I have to, and I have broken no laws with anything I carry on to said plane with me.

I carry pens with me when I go to concerts/night clubs in case I have to stab someone to get away. (Occasionally REAL bouncers will confiscate them. Then I make sure I get them back when I leave...)

Which, will probably freak people out, but hey just because I'm prepared to not to be a victim or statistic doesn't mean I'm looking for trouble.

[hohol]

lite that's exactly my point i don't care about those hypocrites who say that martial arts is actually a sport like track martial art = arts of war and i started them because like you i'm not prepared to be a victim to stick with some moral law i will not hesitate to kill someone if he represents a physical threat to me or to the people i love
about silat do you know some good webpage to pick silat technics

[Junket]

lite that's exactly my point i don't care about those hypocrites who say that martial arts is actually a sport like track martial art = arts of war and i started them because like you i'm not prepared to be a victim to stick with some moral law i will not hesitate to kill someone if he represents a physical threat to me or to the people i love
about silat do you know some good webpage to pick silat technics

It's like you're bored at your own words.

[Lipp]

Teaching a traditional style rather than sporty style is one thing, teaching techniques that have fatal results is quite another.

I'd say that both traditional and sports ones are viable just as there are less traditional but real-world-applicable ones (more often referred to as Combatives, usually derived from military systems) and meditative ones, it all depends on what people do it for and what they want to get out of it.

But no, I don't like the teaching of deadly techniques. And by deadly I don't mean "Hey, don't teach kicking, if you do it often enough someone dies" but rather teaching how to twist a neck to snap it, kicks that aim for particularly fatal impact points on the chest e.t.c (choking is fine since its works well as long as you release rather than do a full choke).

If you want to be good at martial arts there are surely so many ways that you can subdue an opponent - everything from a simple wrist lock to if necessary break bones or render unconscious - so that going that extra step for death is uncalled for and should only occur by accident or in desperation, not by intention or when it's unnecessary.

[IndiReloaded]

I found Aikido to be hollow and actually kind of useless. Sure, they teach you how to hold a sword, and deflect attacks, and redirect energy given. Which several other martial arts do. However they never took it into a practical approach. The never broke down each kata (I forget the word they used at the moment for the grouping of movements for practice) and showed how you could take meta-movements and flow them together into a real-world application.

Perhaps this was just my school that I attended, but my choices were limited.

Re: Aikido, there is a LOT of crap out there. All this garbage about 'ki' and stuff that is more like a cult than martial art. I just spent 6 months travelling to different dojos/styles and most was just like you say. Its like any school, very instructor dependent.

Yoshinkan seems better than most tho. It is actually a requirement for Tokyo riot police. And they *do* break down movements, very precisely in fact. But, even there, it can be very brutal depending on the instructor. And that's not optimal either. Here's one of the top guys I've trained with from a seminar in Hawaii:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QHG0Esuntk"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

It looks contrived, but I assure you its not. This guy is probably one of 5 in the world who does "the real thing". Since you train, I'm sure you'll recognize that the 'slow' movements are slow only for the demo & that those 'grab' techniques would end up with the attacker having a broken wrist (or worse) at full speed. He does show a couple 'fast' throws just to illustrate. Even still, this guy is "pulling" his technique. The ONLY reason these guys in the vid aren't severely hurt is b/c they are very trained to take those hard falls. He'd run out of students pretty quickly if he opened the tank for real. I've taken his uke myself & its damned scary.

[IndiReloaded]

Teaching a traditional style rather than sporty style is one thing, teaching techniques that have fatal results is quite another.

Have you been to Thambu Sensei yet, Lipp? You are missing out.

[Sonrisa]

I think that any person with ANY martial training can potentially kill his opponents. I took Shotokan for years and we were trained to really cause damage to our opponents.

[IndiReloaded]

Actually, it can create a false sense of security, Sonrisa. And things like Karate can actually be really bad for small women. Those types of 'force meets force' training is almost never going to work for someone like that. It just becomes a case of 'who is strongest'. I know a woman who was a very high dan in karate who got her ass kicked in an elevator by a huge tank of a man. Her punches & kicks were like a mosquito attacking an elephant. No matter how skilled, one cannot overcome basic physics as relates to different in mass & momentum.

That's why Lites progression is actually the correct one. Esp number 2, failing 1.