No Belief in Himself...

[Aeradalia]

Just to let you know... I haven't planned to do anything just yet, but these have been some of my thoughts...

My bf does not see himself as being capable of providing any kind of a future... he wants to have a house, a wife, a family... etc... but is caught in the idea that he is a loser - a poor example to follow. He believes that past failures in life would have to lead him to conclude that he simply cannot do such things.

I have asked him if he had studied his past 'failures' and what has he learned from them... hoping that maybe I could gain some insight into his way of thinking. He said that he had and just doesn't see himself as capable of succeeding in that regard. His past has been filled with lots of pain and disappointments - mostly disappointments in himself.

At one point he said that he is not one that I could pin my hopes for a future on.. and that he was sorry to have disappointed me. However, he also explained that he does not want to let me go... that he wants to help me succeed in life - even if that means without him ultimately. We talked for a little longer and he had felt that I was saddened by all of this (and I was), and he said that it was foolish for him to think he was capable of bringing anyone happiness. I responded by saying that he has, does, and still does bring me happiness. I also told him that life is about the experience - not the destination, and that we should cherish the time we have now. This seem to alleviate his concerns about providing some sort of future.

There was more to the conversation... but essentially I get the feeling that he has very low self-esteem and from past relationships has concluded that he's not capable of achieving these things he wants - that it would somehow fail in some unforeseen way.

My view of such things is that you have to believe in yourself and your capabilities before you can truly increase your odds of success. This insecurity that he has is something he will have to fix - I can't do it for him. He's the one that has to believe in himself - believe that life is not set in stone... not even for someone who's not 'as young' anymore. The only option I see in which I could truly help is to remove as much stress about the future as possible for him... and let the relationship be comfortable - desired. Perhaps if he grows fond enough of being with someone - realizing they're not going to leave or view - he may finally relax. Hopefully, over time.. I can help him to see that he has so much to offer... and that he is capable of so much more than he believes right now.

As I said before... these are just thoughts... I haven't acted on any impulses yet to talk to him further about this. Merely, just backed off and let him know that the future is not of the greatest concern right now...

Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

[Bokonon]

Wow, I'm sorry, it must be really heard to be on the receiving end of that conversation. It sounds like he has a lot to get worked out for himself before he can participate in a healthy relationship. If he's not in counseling, you might consider suggesting it to him. It's strange how low self-esteem works...causing the very thing he's afraid of. Cognitive therapy is pretty good for dealing with irrational beliefs. Good luck and I hope you two are able to work through this!

[DoesntMatter]

i'd say that behind every great man there's a great women.

Nikola Tesla.....

[Lite]

i'd say that behind every great man there's a great women. Lead him into the right direction. if you believe that he needs a new job, help him find one. he has a mental block that you can help him break through. with every small achievement that he gains in life, his self esteem will grow.

Oh that's bullshit. You cannot lead someone to a good job, or to be the person you believe they can be. Either they believe in themselves or they don't.

There's a huge difference between leading someone somewhere and encouraging them to better themselves. Exactly how many women have failed marriages based around the belief of, "I can change him for the better! I know I can!" It's crap. People change only because they want to change, not because you want them to.

You can only inject so much one-sided energy into a relationship before it becomes codependent.

The man needs encouragement, not leadership. He needs to develop his own self worth and self esteem based upon his accomplishments and what he believes them to be worth, not what others judge them to be worth. If you base your self worth upon the views of others, you will fail. Eventually they will say something that erodes your belief in what they say. It's a false prop for an ego, and it needs to be heavily discouraged.

[boobaa]

Never tell him to cheer up when he feels down. A person can't just cheer up from scratch. There has to be a reason, and that comes when he is threated as normal being until the problem dissapears.

One thing to remember is that in our society, it is expected that women sort of rely on men. Therefore womens insecurities are more normal, they are easily fixed. But a failure in mans life can have a huge impact since he feels he has responsibility and therefore has failed. From early age, we study, study, work, study, work and work more just to provide for a family, this is expected and every man knows it.

What you need to tell him, is that what use is the past. He lives in present day, not in past, past doesn't matter. Think of today, not yesterday or tomorrow, because you live right now, in this current moment in this current place.

There is no point in telling him that "everyhting will be ok", such words don't carry any meaning, and you both know that. The least it does is that it takes away the bit of responsibility and such unstable person may just let go of everything, which is negative thing.

I cannot give any more advice because I don't know the problem. Is he jobless? Homeless? Abused? Or has a job, money but just feels that way? Is it routine?

If it is about the lack of job, he needs to get into mood. He should take any job he can. Heck i am a machinist cleaner making minimum wage after school and been struggling my whole life, my only parent is as poor as me, but as long as I am fine, I am fine. This is called living in the present. Just live, work on what you can, when better opportunity comes, bite it.

The biggest mistake is the 'I am going to change him' part, yes. This is stupid, so what is it, is it about you or him? And overanalyzing, the need to fix everything, can lead to all sorts of problems. Eventually you may feel both unhappy because you both failed.

[Aeradalia]

Oh that's bullshit. You cannot lead someone to a good job, or to be the person you believe they can be. Either they believe in themselves or they don't.

There's a huge difference between leading someone somewhere and encouraging them to better themselves. Exactly how many women have failed marriages based around the belief of, "I can change him for the better! I know I can!" It's crap. People change only because they want to change, not because you want them to.

You can only inject so much one-sided energy into a relationship before it becomes codependent.

The man needs encouragement, not leadership. He needs to develop his own self worth and self esteem based upon his accomplishments and what he believes them to be worth, not what others judge them to be worth. If you base your self worth upon the views of others, you will fail. Eventually they will say something that erodes your belief in what they say. It's a false prop for an ego, and it needs to be heavily discouraged.

I'm making attempts to avoid leading or changing him... or falling for the 'Shining Knight Syndrome' in regards to him.

I've been thinking about sorting through our chats, emails, letters, and text messages that we have sent to one another. I cannot change his mind, but hopefully I can use his own words to show that what he says to encourage me can be used to encourage him... possibly to show how contradictory he's being. Possibly I can pull from my own past experiences, as well as his to show how one has to discern what beneficial lessons were learned --- lessons that helped a person grow - not lend to more self-loathing..

He can be quite analytical when he's not falling into such emotional turmoil... hopefully I can bring this out in him to see he is indulging in self-pity... drawing destructive and illogical conclusions from the past. This will take some time... but I'll have to continue to encourage him... and whenever possible, bring out his logical side when he becomes self-loathsome and depressed.

[Gigabitch]

Okay, first of all, that was the best post I've ever seen boobaa make. You just went up 100 points in my estimation, boobaa.

Aeradalia, it sounds like he thinks he has to carry you through life when he can barely carry himself. I think it's really unfortunate that he sees your relationship this way. You're not some anchor around his neck- you're a swimmer too. I suggest that you try to explain to him, gently, that it's insulting to you that he sees you as someone completely dependent upon him, incapable of making any real contribution to a successful marriage and family.

I also recommend that you give him some small things to help with. Ask his advice about things occasionally. Tell him you love talking to him because you feel that he really understands you. Try to find ways to get him to turn back towards you and head towards the future.

If he won't do that, though, you have to look long and hard at Lite's post and think about how much of yourself you're willing to expend on someone who doesn't even want to meet you halfway.

[Lite]

I'm making attempts to avoid leading or changing him... or falling for the 'Shining Knight Syndrome' in regards to him.

I've been thinking about sorting through our chats, emails, letters, and text messages that we have sent to one another. I cannot change his mind, but hopefully I can use his own words to show that what he says to encourage me can be used to encourage him... possibly to show how contradictory he's being. Possibly I can pull from my own past experiences, as well as his to show how one has to discern what beneficial lessons were learned --- lessons that helped a person grow - not lend to more self-loathing..

He can be quite analytical when he's not falling into such emotional turmoil... hopefully I can bring this out in him to see he is indulging in self-pity... drawing destructive and illogical conclusions from the past. This will take some time... but I'll have to continue to encourage him... and whenever possible, bring out his logical side when he becomes self-loathsome and depressed.

Is it possible he has a chemical imbalance that is affecting his ability to make clear assertions about where he needs to take his life?

What I've run into personally when it comes to what I call "fixer upper" relationships is that even if you can manage to inject enough energy into the relationship to jumpstart their path to healing, by the time they get healthy enough to be OK with being in a good relationship you're just too entirely emotionally strung out for them to deal with.

I had a series of relationships in which I pushed several women to rethink their lives, their self worth, and generally improve their own views of themselves. In the end, they all mostly healed themselves and are well on the way to being very good and functional members of dating society. However I was such an emotional wreck by ignoring my own needs and attending to them that they couldn't stand to deal with me when I wasn't "strong" for them.

Pretty much the moment I showed any sign of emotional weakness they would run away screaming. When really all I needed was for someone to tell me that they believed in me, and that they knew I was strong enough emotionally to sort myself out.

Eventually I learned to stop pursuing such relationships, but it was pretty miserable being a springboard relationship over and over again.

It's one thing to tell someone you believe in their own personal strength. It's another to try to force them to change themselves to meet your needs. You can say, "Look, I KNOW you're far stronger than you believe yourself to be, and I know you're capable of taking this on." and being reassuring during setbacks, because well. Setbacks happen. The important part is that they get enough distance between where they were, and where they are now, that they can gain some perspective on their life, and see that they can affect enough positive change to make a difference.

All you can do is try to nudge them away from sharp objects along the way. You can't make them do things to change themselves.

So, I'm sorry if I sounded a bit harsh towards Indignant, but I firmly believe there is a huge chasm between leading a person to where you believe they need to go and kicking someone in the ass repeatedly to give them the momentum they need to get to where they're going.

[Aeradalia]

Okay, first of all, that was the best post I've ever seen boobaa make. You just went up 100 points in my estimation, boobaa.

Aeradalia, it sounds like he thinks he has to carry you through life when he can barely carry himself. I think it's really unfortunate that he sees your relationship this way. You're not some anchor around his neck- you're a swimmer too. I suggest that you try to explain to him, gently, that it's insulting to you that he sees you as someone completely dependent upon him, incapable of making any real contribution to a successful marriage and family.

I also recommend that you give him some small things to help with. Ask his advice about things occasionally. Tell him you love talking to him because you feel that he really understands you. Try to find ways to get him to turn back towards you and head towards the future.

If he won't do that, though, you have to look long and hard at Lite's post and think about how much of yourself you're willing to expend on someone who doesn't even want to meet you halfway.

I have given your advice some consideration... and will probably do just that. However, I have to wonder... if I give him small tasks to help me with... won't that reinforce his belief that he has to 'carry me through life'? Will I have to bring a little more attention to the fact I help him with some things and he helps me with some things - that there is a balance?

[Aeradalia]

The biggest mistake is the 'I am going to change him' part, yes. This is stupid, so what is it, is it about you or him? And overanalyzing, the need to fix everything, can lead to all sorts of problems. Eventually you may feel both unhappy because you both failed.

He's in Iraq right now... but he did work at a college while he was over here... this problem is something that had been hinted at - I sensed that he was a little uneasy about the idea of what the future may bring - what's expected in a relationship... so I kept from prying or really bringing it up. He would bring the topic up on occasion... varying from liking the idea to being quite fearful of bringing about disappointment...

I do not want to 'change him'... it's just that he says he'd really want these things... a house, a wife, and kids... yet acts as though this is impossible for him to do - as though the whole world has conspired against his chance for success. I can't help but to wonder if this is a form of depression or if he is applying past experiences to what we have now...

So I see that he wants these things... but I fail to understand why he feels he can't have them? I'm certainly not holding him back on the possibilities of such things....

[Lite]

I do not want to 'change him'... it's just that he says he'd really want these things... a house, a wife, and kids... yet acts as though this is impossible for him to do - as though the whole world has conspired against his chance for success. I can't help but to wonder if this is a form of depression or if he is applying past experiences to what we have now...

So I see that he wants these things... but I fail to understand why he feels he can't have them? I'm certainly not holding him back on the possibilities of such things....

Have you considered that he may not really want these things, he merely feels as if they're expected of him as a societal pressure to "become an adult" and that is how those around him define such an action?

I'm the last male in my line. My family lineage in this country goes back a few hundred years pre founding of the United States. So with me dies a long line of my family tree by not having children. It's actually quite an incredible pressure to have. Now, do I have children because they want me to? Is that the right thing to do?

They always teach you to act like an adult, but they don't teach what it is to be an adult. One day you're legally a minor, the next day you're an adult. What defines an adult? Nobody has told you, so you look around and you see adults. They have jobs, they have houses, they have kids, they're becoming alcoholics because they're miserable. Is that what being an adult means?

So, sure you can expect that you "want" these things because other people expect you to want them, but maybe you don't really want them and resent the pressure from others to do so. So, you do little things to sabotage your success. Things that slowly paint you as unsuitable for being treated as an adult by those who want you do do what they feel is best for you.

Nobody actually ever sits down and says, "You know, it's OK to not want kids, or to not want to own a house. It's OK to want to travel for your job. It's OK as long as you decide you're responsible for you.

[IndiReloaded]

Oh that's bullshit. You cannot lead someone to a good job, or to be the person you believe they can be. Either they believe in themselves or they don't.

There's a huge difference between leading someone somewhere and encouraging them to better themselves. Exactly how many women have failed marriages based around the belief of, "I can change him for the better! I know I can!" It's crap. People change only because they want to change, not because you want them to.

You can only inject so much one-sided energy into a relationship before it becomes codependent.

The man needs encouragement, not leadership. He needs to develop his own self worth and self esteem based upon his accomplishments and what he believes them to be worth, not what others judge them to be worth. If you base your self worth upon the views of others, you will fail. Eventually they will say something that erodes your belief in what they say. It's a false prop for an ego, and it needs to be heavily discouraged.

I happen to agree completely with this post.

[Aeradalia]

Have you considered that he may not really want these things, he merely feels as if they're expected of him as a societal pressure to "become an adult" and that is how those around him define such an action?

I'm the last male in my line. My family lineage in this country goes back a few hundred years pre founding of the United States. So with me dies a long line of my family tree by not having children. It's actually quite an incredible pressure to have. Now, do I have children because they want me to? Is that the right thing to do?

They always teach you to act like an adult, but they don't teach what it is to be an adult. One day you're legally a minor, the next day you're an adult. What defines an adult? Nobody has told you, so you look around and you see adults. They have jobs, they have houses, they have kids, they're becoming alcoholics because they're miserable. Is that what being an adult means?

So, sure you can expect that you "want" these things because other people expect you to want them, but maybe you don't really want them and resent the pressure from others to do so. So, you do little things to sabotage your success. Things that slowly paint you as unsuitable for being treated as an adult by those who want you do do what they feel is best for you.

Nobody actually ever sits down and says, "You know, it's OK to not want kids, or to not want to own a house. It's OK to want to travel for your job. It's OK as long as you decide you're responsible for you.

I hope I wasn't putting any pressure on him... I'm not even sure if I want to be married and have kids in the future - if ever - but I'm not against it either... right now, I just want him to stay around... to be honest. I just want him to stay, and be comfortable around me... It worries me to hear these insecurities he has. I can't help it... I have a natural inclination to want to fix things and then enjoy the peace again.

[IndiReloaded]

I'm the last male in my line. My family lineage in this country goes back a few hundred years pre founding of the United States. So with me dies a long line of my family tree by not having children. It's actually quite an incredible pressure to have. Now, do I have children because they want me to? Is that the right thing to do?

Oh, I can help you with this, Lite.

Your lineage in the US doesn't mean shit. If you go back to around 1000 AD, when the population of the planet was only a few million ppl, you are likely directly related to 1 in 200 ppl. And if you account for the fact that most ppl didn't travel very far from their birthplace in that time, the number is even smaller.

So, genetically, you aren't that unique. There is lots of YOU around. If you don't reproduce your genes there isn't much lost from the biological gene pool standpoint.

Now, you do seem to express some interesting memes. Ones I personally think have some value in our current world. Rational thinking ppl aren't so common as we'd like to think. So, by not reproducing and raising rational children and spreading those memes, you may be doing society a disservice.

Hope that helps.

[Lite]

I hope I wasn't putting any pressure on him... I'm not even sure if I want to be married and have kids in the future - if ever - but I'm not against it either... right now, I just want him to stay around... to be honest. I just want him to stay, and be comfortable around me... It worries me to hear these insecurities he has. I can't help it... I have a natural inclination to want to fix things and then enjoy the peace again.

That's normal, people want those they care about to be "OK", and sometimes (especially us men) we have to know to stand back and merely just been the cheerleaders people need to help find their own inner strength.

We all have times of personal crisis of faith in our ability to carry on. I've had more than my share of very bad days in which the only thing that kept me from offing myself was a sick desire to find out what happened next. (I hate when a series of books ends. It KILLS me.) Thankfully not in many years, but I've been there.

What I know is that I can take my entire world, nuke it from orbit (It's the only way to be sure), rebuilt it from scratch, and still be OK with it all and the end of that particular journey in my life. I know that I am capable of doing anything I really want to do. I've been bad to myself for many years, and I had to learn to be my own man, my own person, and stand on my own damn two feet.

Dig called me an asshole in my real life. I don't believe that to be true now, nor in the past. But it's closer to being true now than it ever has been. (I try to tow a very fine line between asshole and not being an asshole at this point.) No, I was the nice wishy-washy guy that everyone walked all over, and I was OK with it. I didn't believe that I deserved to be happy, or that I was a worthwhile person. I married a woman I couldn't stand because I felt she was saintly enough to tolerate me on a day-to-day basis.

I had no spine, no self worth, no belief in what I could do.

Anyway, I'm rambling about me here...

The short version of what I needed and what you may be able to provide him:

Maybe he just needs a good constant reminder of his own personal strength, and that someone has faith in his ability to change his circumstances for the better.