Oh no! Are you sure?

[GrkScorp]

Gag me. Never understood the mentality behind it. LOL, my friend bought me a Chanel purse for my birthday and all the other girls oohed and ahhed. Uh, sure, thanks? Could you just give me the $400 instead? I could buy 10 purses. I don't envy you having to sift through all the model/actress types. Good luck with that.

Oh I gave up on it a while ago..

I'd rather sift through professional types to find some cute ones.., than to sift through the cute ones in hopes of finding a normal one..

As for the mentality.., it's the "self-crowning effect"..

Remember.., status matters.., it's like someone buying the feeling of being more valuable.., special.., of higher status.. etc..

They don't just want to be dating someone who's hot.., but someone who is of a certain status.., doctors.., lawyers.., investment bankers only.., and not just any.., Mt. Sinai.., Columbia.., NYU or Cornell only.. and it doesn't stop there.., he has to take them to the top hot-spots of NYC.., Peter Luger's.., The Boathouse.., etc.. mini-vacations in Cancun or Boston.., and of course.., the latest stuff.. If there's a new dress.., bag.., or shoes out.., and it's better than what her friends have.., she must have it.., and if you don't get it.., you're a sh*tty boyfriend.. Why?

Bragging rights.. She gets to tell all her friends.. "look who I'm fcuking".., and "look at what he gets me! die of envy b*tches".. She gets to feel more successful just by virtue of associating herself with this guy.., but she needs to show her friends that he loves her or that she's got him hooked.., and he keeps showering her with all this stuff.. All the high-end stuff also makes her feel more special and valuable.., more cultured and sophisticated.. If you deprive her of that feeling.., you effectively cause her to have lower value in front of her shallow lot of friends.. And that's why she hates you for it..

Not all aspiring actresses & models are like that.., but most of them are.., so it's just such a waste of time to try and find that diamond in the rough..

The more interesting question is why actresses & models feel the need to derive value for themselves through stuff and things in relation to all the other groups.. Some of them are actually very smart people.., they just don't try.., they'd rather capitalize on their looks.. I guess they just feel insecure about it after a point.. Like they have nothing substantial to show for themselves..

[CherriBlossomGirl]

They don't just want to be dating someone who's hot.., but someone who is of a certain status.., doctors.., lawyers.., investment bankers only.., and not just any.., Mt. Sinai.., Columbia.., NYU or Cornell only..

So, in other words, they expect you to be everything they are not. I see how it goes. Honestly, I truly blame the media. Many younger people, not just women, have this inflated sense of entitlement. "I deserve this..." or "I'm above that!" Oh god, I could go out of my mind with it. All I see is a bunch of Paris Hiltons running around, and I'm not just talking actresses and models.

I've noticed with women of my generation (generalizing here, I know) have this false sense of my-life-will-be-perfect. They see Prince Charming, their one and only, sweeping them off their feet and taking them to a castle full of riches. All of this without any work on their end. "I don't need a career, he'll take care of me. I also don't need to alter any undesirable behaviors because he should just take me as I am, even if I am bossy and lazy. I also want him to buy me things, oh, and bring me to orgasm every night. But only if I want to. If I don't feel like it, then I won't do it. In fact, I don't even need to know how to clean or cook because he will do it, or he'll pay for someone to do it!"

Again, gag. There is absolutely NO motivation in some of these women. They think their job is to look pretty and be waited on. As far as I'm concerned, a relationship, no matter how much you love the person, is going to be work. No, you will not agree on everything. Yes, you will have arguments. Yes, you're going to get frustrated with one another. What I see in this generation (again, generalizing) is all take and no give. People put out 10% and take 90%. You will NEVER be happy when you are constantly draining your loved ones dry. A relationship is going to have compromises, equal amounts of give and take. People expect to always have things their way, when it just can't work like that. Why on earth would you want to be in a relationship with someone exactly like you? Might as well marry a mirror. It makes no sense.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm sick of people *expecting* perfection because it's what they've been told to expect. Even as a small girl, my parents and even my favorite Disney movies told me that I was a princess, and someday my prince would come and I would live happily ever after. When fed these lies, I was never told that I really could live happily if I just worked at it. No no, in fairy tales, there is no work. Prince Lawyer sweeps you right off of your Italian leather Fendi's and into a high rise penthouse suite to live happily ever after.

I don't know about other women, but I like reality. It's a pleasant place to live. Not only have I not created an idiotic standard that makes it impossible for me to be happy, but I've come to love reality and take things for what they are worth.

[GrkScorp]

So, in other words, they expect you to be everything they are not.

Exactly.., I couldn't have said it more perfectly..

Honestly, I truly blame the media. Many younger people, not just women, have this inflated sense of entitlement. "I deserve this..." or "I'm above that!" Oh god, I could go out of my mind with it. All I see is a bunch of Paris Hiltons running around, and I'm not just talking actresses and models.

The media is a start.., but it's not like a bunch of people come together and conspire how to make it such that women in society lack motivation to do anything and are constantly dependent on men.. It's still the lingering concepts of traditional gender roles that cause the media to frame its content this way..

As far as advertising.., both on the internet & TV.., every economist & marketing director knows that women compose 80% of consumer spending in this country.. Advertising isn't about a logical sell.., it's about an emotional sell.., like propaganda.., it doesn't have to make sense.., it just has to be quick.., and cause an emotional response.. For decades now.., it's been simple.. Just make women feel insecure.., and then offer to sell them an escape from that feeling.. Remind them how less than perfect they are.., rub it in their face.., until it's almost impossible to ignore.., and then offer them the elixir of beauty.. It's worked for 50 years.. and then we wonder why so many women go crazy and have body image issues..

I've noticed with women of my generation (generalizing here, I know) have this false sense of my-life-will-be-perfect. They see Prince Charming, their one and only, sweeping them off their feet and taking them to a castle full of riches. All of this without any work on their end. "I don't need a career, he'll take care of me. I also don't need to alter any undesirable behaviors because he should just take me as I am, even if I am bossy and lazy. I also want him to buy me things, oh, and bring me to orgasm every night. But only if I want to. If I don't feel like it, then I won't do it. In fact, I don't even need to know how to clean or cook because he will do it, or he'll pay for someone to do it!"

I have to be fair.., this doesn't sum up every woman I've met in my life.., but it does sum up "nearly" every woman I've met it my life.. This is so dead on it's not even funny..

But hey.., then again.., that's the tragedy of selling fantasy as a form of entertainment.. Watch enough Disney or Sex & the City.., it wouldn't come as a shock to me to see unrealistic expectations..

The same can be said about guys and porn.., look at enough perfectly sculpted bodies for 200 days out of the year.., for a couple of years.., and everything after that is less than perfect.. It's easy to overlook the fact that besides plastic surgery.., these women diet and work-out constantly.., 8 hours a day.., it's their job..

Getting lost in fantasy.., not knowing to differentiate it from reality.., breeds unrealistic expectations.. Though I don't know where this sense of "entitlement" comes from.. It must be ego-driven.. Feeling you are better in relation to everyone else.., and are entitled to have your fantasy met in a more complete way than all others around you.. Might explain why men chase after the supermodel hottie.., and women chase after Prince Lawyer as you put it..

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm sick of people *expecting* perfection because it's what they've been told to expect.

Yup.. "you'll never learn to love yourself.., until you realize how imperfect and unimportant you are in the grand scheme of things"..

Like with the girl I'm currently dating.., I'm really not that attracted to her physically.. She's not exactly my type.. Throw her in front of me 4 years ago and I would have skipped her.. But now.., I'm trying my best to control myself to not do something crazy like order a [URL="http://www.tiffany.com/Engagement/Item.aspx?subCategoryid=1001"]http://www.tiffany.com/Engagement/Item.aspx?subCategoryid=1001[/URL] and pop the question the next time we see each other..

I like that fact that she's not perfect.., at least to everyone else.., but to me she's perfect.. I know the more connected I feel.., the more attracted I'll be to her.. So it's only really a matter of time.. But she could easily say the same about me.., It's not like my family is on the Forbes 500 list.., or like I'm finishing at the top of my class from Harvard Law.. but learning to love the other person's imperfections.., is what makes your partner perfect for you.. Fewer and fewer people having this mentality now days..

I don't know about other women, but I like reality. It's a pleasant place to live. Not only have I not created an idiotic standard that makes it impossible for me to be happy, but I've come to love reality and take things for what they are worth.

Does everyone in Utah have your train of thought? It's becoming more rare to find someone who knows how to "appreciate" things (and the other person)..

[IndiReloaded]

There's something wrong, GS with what you describe. I'm surprised noone else has mentioned this.

I am from that cross section of society you describe, top school, high education. So is my husband. We hire your sort to manage our investments. I only know *one* gal who is like what you describe in our social circle, and she's a real estate broker. She's actually quite nice, but makes no apologies--she enjoys having lots of money & enjoys spending it on $$$ things.

The rest are very down-to-earth. Enjoy fine things, but are not snobs about them.

You are experiencing Law of Attraction, I think. I think things like money mean a lot to you as some form of security & a status symbol, instead of viewing it as a tool that is easily gotten & used for other things. So you will attract ppl who are like-minded. If you don't like what you are getting, do something different. Perhaps you should look for a girl who isn't 1st-generation wealthy.

[lesa]

"Want to join me at the theatre this weekend?"
"Sure! I'd love that!" You don't even ask what play you're going to see because you're so excited to be spending time with this person that you're attracted to. You don't even know if it's a musical or river dance or stand-up comedy.
You get to the ticket booth. It's a musical. You hate musicals. But he/she is there, so you don't really care. Omg, you get to sit next to him/her in the dark, hands touching, whispering to each other between horribly tacky show tunes.
Exit your daydream and you're back at the ticket counter hearing your date say, "One ticket please."
Pop. Your affection bubble just burst.
The pimply teenager in the box office looks from him/her to you, dressed up for the evening. Confused. "You mean two?"
"Nope, just one. My lovely date will be paying for his/hers."
I've got to be honest. I would walk. Have a nice life, Monsieur ( or Madame ) Cheap-o. P.S. You have the worst taste in plays I have ever seen.

Yep you got it! One of the favorite things the ex liked to do was dinner and a late night movie. He invited me and I usually had no clue what movie or what restaurant we were going to. I didn't care!

When we broke up I finally told him that I don't really care for watching movies (I don't even watch TV) but I did it for him--to be his company and enjoy his presence. We could watch paint dry and I wouldn't mind as long as I was with him. We went to a LOT of places that I didn't like but I didn't care. I enjoyed my time with him still.

[lesa]

My goodness Grk, what kind of people do you find attractive? What are your reasons for dating these kind of women?

Jeez, I thought my bf was high maintenance, lol. But these women sound snobbish.

[GrkScorp]

Oh I gave up on it a while ago..

Jeez.., I guess you missed that one..

After high school and the first year of college.., most of my girlfriends haven't exactly been high maintenance.. In fact.., quite the opposite..

I made the mistake of thinking I could "change" or "fix" these girls.., But obviously we all know from experience that doesn't really happen.. It took me a couple of years to accept that.. The ones that were worth it.., I just wasn't happy with because there were other people coming into my life at that time.., I was younger.., I just wanted something new.., and I ruined perfectly good relationships for no reason whatsoever..

But after that.., I realized how dumb and pointless it was to give up something you really want.., for the thrill of something new.. Most have been great.., especially my Indian ex of 3 years.. The one's I'm not interested in only last about a week or two.., I don't feel the least bit guilty for ending thing immediately on the grounds of "I don't want to see you anymore".. But of the ones I've carried forward for longer than that.., none of them were really materialistic.. So you can't really reasonably make the argument that I'm attracted to or prefer materialistic women over non-materialistic ones.. Sure.., I had my fun here and there with some materialistic women.., but in terms of actual dating.., I haven't given them the light of day.. The attraction there was to their body.., not their character.. That's something you outgrow.., as you start to look at the overall picture..

I do post up my earlier experiences though as a case study for other guys on the forum..

My goodness Grk, what kind of people do you find attractive? What are your reasons for dating these kind of women?

Who said I find high maintenance girls attractive? Did I say something like that anywhere? You have a wealth of text on my part.., I'm interested to know what I actually said that lead you to make that inference.. I just find tan brunettes attractive.., and the girl I'm seeing now is white & blonde.. So she doesn't exactly flip my attraction switches.. at least not physically..

Reasons for dating which kind?

In high school? What reasons do guys have for dating in high school? Seriously.. She's hot.., I want to have my way with her.., and of story.. There's nothing more deep going on than that right there..

Now? Now I've done what I had to do.., fun is over.., it would be retarded to start taking a step back.. I'm looking for actual commonalities.., so a strong connection to the other person's character is really what draws me in.. Immediately.. when I can think to myself.. "this is someone I could see myself getting married to".. it's on.. In my current situation.., it's more like.. "I want to marry her right now".., so it's really on.. But hasty impulsive things like that are very risky.., so best to take it slow.., let my mind cool down.., let me get to really know her first.., before I actually make a serious choice like that..

[lesa]

I don't mean the high maintenance part. I mean the snobbish-like behavior.

[GrkScorp]

I don't mean the high maintenance part. I mean the snobbish-like behavior.

Oh! Hahaha!

I used to be absolutely fascinated with snobs.. There were two kinds.., the attractive snobs.., and the unattractive snobs..

The unattractive ones were funny.., because they felt that by mimicking their attractive friends.., or other attractive snobs.., men would find them more attractive..

They failed to see the flaw in their reasoning:

Some attractive women are snobs
Men are attracted to attractive women
_________________________________
Therefore.., men are attracted to snobs

(That's excusable.., because I remember reading somewhere that women are more prone to the cognitive bias that's responsible for making that kind of fallacy)

The attractive ones posed a challenge.. I will admit.., the last thing guys find attractive is a challenge.., it's usually a guy's "next" cue.., but in this case.., I was curious..

I was younger.., got my hands on the inner workings of emotional framework.., I was just itching to test it all out.. It would be sinister to do this stuff on honest and genuine girls.., it just wouldn't be fair to them.. But snobs.., oh these were such tempting subjects..

Their weakness.., their Achille's heel wasn't their insecurity.., but the root of it.., their ego.. The first part was easy.., reel them in with honey.., let them feel great about themselves.., let them feel like they're putting on a load of resistance and playing hard to get.., let them convince and tell themselves that they're not cheap or easy.., let them have their moments of priding themselves on how difficult they are.., put on a little bit of an act and let them believe they have all this sexual power over you and let them savor the validation that follows.., shower them with some well-timed attention for them to feel chased and wanted.., and then take it all away.., and tease them with it all again.., and then take it away once more.., hooked.., with nowhere to go..

The major sticking point was when you had them in your hand.. They saw things their way.., and no other way.. They were convinced that they were thinking logically.., you could spend hours going over formal logic with them.., they didn't want to hear any of it.., they were right.., you were wrong.., end of story.. So then you took an emotional approach.., where you encountered anger and denial.. Change was simply not possible.., at least not in a reasonable time-frame.. The irony was.., that what was preventing them for bettering themselves was the same weakness that got them hooked so easily in the first place.., their ego..

As soon as I realized what was going on.., when that pattern was clear.., I gave up on snobs.. Not worth the time or effort..

Some attractive women are snobs.., but!

Not all attractive women are snobs

That lead me to look deeper into "why" some attractive women are snobs.., and why others aren't..

To no big surprise.., the ones with more fulfilling lives.., (quality friendships.., close family relationship.., academic achievers.., creative hobbies.., and reading "if you ran a regression.., reading would probably have the largest coefficient believe it or not if all variables are scaled").. were less snobby (if at all) than those who didn't have fulfilling lives (dishonest & fake friendships.., lack of communication between parents.., set low academic standards for themselves and then failed to achieve them.., hobbies like shopping.., and no substantial amount or quality of reading)..

What it all meant? It meant they were not deprived of quality attention and meaningful validation.. It meant they were secure with themselves and felt accomplished enough not to look for alternative means of validation like looks or sexual attention.. But it also meant that their ego's appetite for attention and validation was satisfied.., and this allowed them to appreciate and consider the input of others.., which allowed them to learn to enjoy reading.., novels.., fiction.., non-fiction.., research.., ideas.., anything.. They knew how to "listen".. even if they didn't agree with what was being said..

Given to pick between the two.., at least I thought the choice was obvious.. It was pretty easy to screen out female ego..

I say I thought the choice was obvious.., because ironically.., the more difficult of the two were the non-snobs.. There was a very weak hook-point.. Very few ego-strings to pull.. They were fulfilled and satisfied with their life and themselves.., they didn't feel any need to put on a snob act.., play difficult.., tell themselves they're not cheap or easy just to feel good about themselves.., created an idea of any kind of sexual power as a means of self-validation.., or craved attention or validation in general.. This cut out a lot of avenues on how to stroke their ego.. It was like a fortress locked tight and sealed shut.., but ironically.., because it was wide open!

They might have been more difficult.., but they were also worth it.. Greek ex.., Italian ex.., Indian ex.., heck.., maybe even the crazy Nymph ex if she wasn't.., well.., crazy.. (the only problem there were previous relationships that hurt them and left them damaged)..

It's been a journey I don't regret I took.. It's lead me to someone amazing.., If you had to tell me to create the most amazing person I could imagine.., I couldn't come up with someone half as great as her.. It's allowed me to be prepared.., aware of her quality and value (because i've seen the sh*t that's out there).., place a lot less weight on looks.., though not sensitive, a lot more emotionally aware and intelligent.., and be ready and excited at the idea of a lifelong commitment to this kind of person.. I really don't see how that's a "bad" thing..

[lesa]

It's been a journey I don't regret I took.. It's lead me to someone amazing.., If you had to tell me to create the most amazing person I could imagine.., I couldn't come up with someone half as great as her.. It's allowed me to be prepared.., aware of her quality and value (because i've seen the sh*t that's out there).., place a lot less weight on looks.., though not sensitive, a lot more emotionally aware and intelligent.., and be ready and excited at the idea of a lifelong commitment to this kind of person.. I really don't see how that's a "bad" thing..

I agree. it's not a bad thing. It allows you to know when you found that person you would like to spend your life with and that's a great thing.

I must say that when people male or female finally approach me (or I approach them) some tell me that they thought I was stuck up. A few of the men would tell me that they thought I was like 'them'. I guess the other girls...so many behave like that, I suppose. They were quite surprised and relieved that I am the opposite of the demeanor that I seem to show...so I am working to not create that at the beginning phases of human interaction. I am very ‘cool’ or so people say.

[IndiReloaded]

I say I thought the choice was obvious.., because ironically.., the more difficult of the two were the non-snobs.. There was a very weak hook-point.. Very few ego-strings to pull.. They were fulfilled and satisfied with their life and themselves.., they didn't feel any need to put on a snob act.., play difficult.., tell themselves they're not cheap or easy just to feel good about themselves.., created an idea of any kind of sexual power as a means of self-validation.., or craved attention or validation in general.. This cut out a lot of avenues on how to stroke their ego.. It was like a fortress locked tight and sealed shut.., but ironically.., because it was wide open!

Interesting you choose to use terms like 'difficult' and 'hook point' & 'fortress' when what you really mean is that you have found you can actually be *yourself* around another person who is comfortable with themselves. It can be a frightening thing, tho at first, when one is used to feeling like one needs to play games.

I am glad for you GS, you have arrived at this state. Its good for you & will only get better. Well done.

[1averagejoe]

Grk you are right...I was young and naive and put up with too much crap from that bitch that I didn't have to. So yes it's my fault...I just want some gift certificates .

[CherriBlossomGirl]

Does everyone in Utah have your train of thought? It's becoming more rare to find someone who knows how to "appreciate" things (and the other person)..[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the delayed response, I haven't been on much.

And no, women out here are just as bad. I must have a chemical imbalance.

[GrkScorp]

And no, women out here are just as bad. I must have a chemical imbalance.

Just because something is common or the norm doesn't make it right..

Who is to say that it's "you" who has the chemical imbalance?

[GrkScorp]

I was young and naive and put up with too much crap from that bitch that I didn't have to. So yes it's my fault...I just want some gift certificates .

Hey.., can't feel bad for what mistakes you made when you were young and naive..

But you can feel bad from not learning your lesson the first time.., and making them again..

Do you think I didn't make any mistakes? Do you think you're the only one who made mistakes? Don't beat yourself over it AJ.. Seriously.., any way you want to look at it.., at the end of the day.., all you can do is learn from them..

It's easy to go a little crazy with that suggestion.., on one hand.., you don't want to be the fool "or rug" that gets taken advantage of every time and milked dry to the last penny.., but on the other hand.., you don't want to lose track of reality either.. You have to take a step back and notice when you're starting to sound like a little girl "men just want sex and to use me for my body!".. Really? Similarly.., do you think ALL women JUST want you for your money? Is it really realistic to think that women are only interested in you for that reason? If you hang on to that belief.., you might start to become a little paranoid and think that every woman is trying to manipulate you in some way or an other.. That would take your urge to be guarded to an extreme..

To be fair.., I'd be more terrified of a Type I error than I would be of a Type II error..

Type I: Incorrect rejection
Type II: Incorrect acceptance

What I mean by that is.., even though you're more likely to encounter some very attractive women with some very serious personality flaws.., and you may most certainly be right 90+% of the time in being guarded & skeptical of their intentions and motives.. It would be a huge mistake to wrongfully reject the one of them that's not really like the rest of them at all.. And it would be a huge mistake for the both of you..

It's easy to be guarded.., the hard part is stepping outside your comfort zone.., exposing yourself.., and taking on risk..

Remember.., just because it's a four letter word.., doesn't mean that "risk" is a bad thing..

Mathematically.., it's the standard deviation from the mean.. It can either be positive or negative.., good or bad.., you don't know.., it's uncertain.. and the more risk you expose yourself to.., the further away from the mean you risk finding yourself..

You can be average Joe.., living your life on the mean.. but you'd be missing out on a lot of good lessons.., and a lot of great opportunities..