Raid on Zion Ranch in Texas?

[squirrley]

What do you guys think about it all? I'm on the fence and my husband is livid. (of course he's an attorney and sees the violated rights) I've been called on from the State for child neglect(it was bogus, my friend was pissed at me) BUT it sucked what they put me through. BAM they were at my door and inspected EVERYTHING! Including the cupboards and frig.

I try not to have any conversation with my husband because he's somewhat not happy with our government right now. He's livid that they went in without a warrant without ANYTHING and took EVERYTHING and all children. To me, I've been there and it only takes one call and it IS the states job to investigate. The more I read about what they're finding it makes me sick. Broken bones, pregnant children, etc. The fact they think its normal to wed young women and breed them like cows makes me sick. Its disgusting, and when I try to explain my view point, all Chris sees is the legality of it. Ok, I get it.

It's just scary. Personally, I'm glad those children are out of there and are not subject to more alleged abuse. Yes, this country is freedom of religion, but isn't this illegal also? Poligimy? uh yes. Just because it's under a religious sect makes it legal? Damn, Ive read recently when the women and children were in the colosium, they were changing out the mothers and children so the state couldnt decifer who belonged to who? Why if the men are so innocent, have they not shown up for paternity testing?

The state might get hell down the road with all 400 some attorneys on this one, history in the making, but I'm leaning towards the call that preempted this raid. It only takes one call, one allegation. But what about the last however many years this has been going on? The state Im sure is well aware of it, and that one call was there in?

What do you guys think?

[vashti]

I have a big issue with the men who disappeared when their children were taken from their homes. If they believe they did nothing wrong, why are they now invisible?

As for the polygamy, I don't really have a problem with it so long as the particpants are consenting adults. Religions all have odd behavior we turn a blind eye to, and I don't find the practice of polygamy any worse than other religious practices. Just leave the kids alone.

It's hard for me to believe all those kids were being abused, though.

[GrkScorp]

Its disgusting, and when I try to explain my view point, all Chris sees is the legality of it. Ok, I get it.

Wow.., I hope I don't get to be like that.., but I guess that's a fate I can't really avoid..,

Don't let it get you down.., he definitely means well.., it's just that.., in his mind.., when he wants to know "why" something is "wrong/bad/not right".., he has to put the whole puzzle together.., he needs to think facts.., he needs to think "law".., rules broken.., arguments to be made.., and unless he does that.., then he can't accept or consider something to be right or wrong.., it's the way a legal education programs its students to think.., unless you speak his language.., "feelings.., views.., and opinions" matter very little.., and he'll have a hard time taking them seriously..

But don't let it make you feel upset at him.., again.., it's just the result of law school brainwashing.., taking in normal people and turning them into something cold.., bitter.., emotionless.., a "lawyer"..

When he says something like that.., take a step back.., give him his moment.., his space.., let him go on his legal-logic rant.., and then look at him.., smirk.., go up to him and kiss him if need be.., laugh if it helps.., look him in the eye and tell him:

"Sweetie.., can you just forget about the law for just one moment.., whatever you say it is legally.., you're right.., it sounds good.., the law is what it is.., and according to the facts.., it's either right or wrong.., you're a brilliant lawyer sweetie.., and if you say so.., I trust you.., and I agree with you.., but what if you just take that.., and put it on the side now.., and as a person.., just as a person.., how does that situation make you feel? Forget about if it's right or wrong.., just.., how does it make you feel? You do remember what feelings are right?"

Smile.., keep it friendly and playful.., fun.., no need to keep it too serious.., (you can win more with honey than with vinegar).., sooner or later.., you'll get him thinking about how he "feels".., don't rush to push the point.., just let him explore how he feels about it.., and casually talk about how you "feel" about it.., without taking any side or position of who is right or wrong.., or if there's something good or bad going on.., let him be the judge of that with his "feelings" now.., if you push.., he'll get defensive and revert back to logic.., where he knows he will win.., that's where he feels safe.., so just let him feel safe with "feelings.., views.., opinions".., HIS "feelings.., views.., opinions".., that way.., he'll be more comfortable talking about the issue without bringing up the "legality" of things..

Best,

GrkScorp

[IndiReloaded]

I have a big issue with the men who disappeared when their children were taken from their homes. If they believe they did nothing wrong, why are they now invisible?

As for the polygamy, I don't really have a problem with it so long as the particpants are consenting adults.

I do have a problem and don't believe in turning a blind eye. Polygamy is against the LAW. If they want to be able to do these things, then they get the laws changed. Or they move to a muslim country. You can't have your cake & eat it too. Laws exist for a reason & there's a process however convoluted its become.

I believe in free choice. If they chose to live this way, knowing they were breaking the law, well, now they are paying the price of doing this in a society that actually does still have some sense of enforcement. I hope its worth something to them.

Poor children. My question for everyone to think about is, why NOW?

[vashti]

I do have a problem and don't believe in turning a blind eye. Polygamy is against the LAW.

I realize it's against the law. I just think it's a dumb law, on par with not allowing homosexuals to marry.

[IndiReloaded]

Its a dumb law. But they are dumber to thumb their noses at it for religion.

I have neighbours who I'd trust my son with. Though I don't do it, sleeping w/my neighbour isn't illegal. We could make our own little childminding/sexual swapping enclave if we were so inclined. So, go ahead, make up your own little local commune. Some rural communities, you can't tell the difference anyway.

But to actually SAY you are married? To several ppl at once? OMG, well I suppose trying for the multiple spousal deduction limit would tempt me too. LOL.

[squirrley]

I just find the whole thing disgusting because of the innocent children. Its unbelievable the mothers are ok with their child getting married at 15 or having children. Being married to someone who has God knows how many other wives. It's a society within itself, a religion that's beyond my comprehension. I'm just concerned for those children. FINALLY the state has stepped in to do something. That's my arguement. And I sure as hell wouldn't agree to sharing my husband. I've seen the talk shows and how these couples find it so great, to each their own. But for me, ah hell no. And why is it that theres always just one husband? Hello, how come we don't see one wife with a few honeys?

[IndiReloaded]

There are some, Squirrel. But you have to be a lion, elephant or bee to enjoy it.

[misombra]

people should not get married at all.

and some people should be neutered.

[1averagejoe]

Like one woman isn't enough work...

As long as children are kept out of it, I could care less. If there is a God, let him sort them out when they die. I see it like those crazy Christian's that preach out at college campuses or wherever trying to convert you. They get pissed if you choose to do something other than their beliefs, judge you, and tell you you're going to hell. If someone's going to hell, well let God decide. I feel the same way about homosexuality. If it is wrong, well let God decide. Who are we to judge?

[Junket]

Don't change the laws.

Just kill the law makers!

[vashti]

I just find the whole thing disgusting because of the innocent children. Its unbelievable the mothers are ok with their child getting married at 15 or having children. Being married to someone who has God knows how many other wives. It's a society within itself, a religion that's beyond my comprehension. I'm just concerned for those children. FINALLY the state has stepped in to do something. That's my arguement. And I sure as hell wouldn't agree to sharing my husband. I've seen the talk shows and how these couples find it so great, to each their own. But for me, ah hell no. And why is it that theres always just one husband? Hello, how come we don't see one wife with a few honeys?

Lots of states allow you to marry at 15 or 16 with parental consent.

[squirrley]

Does it make it right though? I certainly wouldn't allow my child to get married at that age. Who knows at the age of 14 and 15 what love is and all of those things that go into a marriage? Obviously this religion has their own set of beliefs, but what constitutes or what is their justification in marrying so young and allowing children to bear children? Adults whether they make the right decision or not is not for me to judge and I'm not trying to judge now, but my concern is for those children.

[vashti]

Of course I think it is too young to marry, but it is wrong to allow some kids to marry and not others. The law is discriminatory, and should either be changed or applied equally. Also, I don't think that people marry for love in this religious background.

Really though, my biggest issue is that I really don't believe all those kids were being abused, and to be taken from a loving home and placed into foster care (which is very frequently NOT a good situation) is wrong.

[squirrley]

I agree, I highly doubt ALL of those kids were abused. I think it's wrong to take them all, and I have no doubt some serious law issues will arise from the raid. I think the state was looking for a way to get in there and they had it with the one call. I do know when the state gets a call, they have to investigate and if they see neglect or abuse the child/ren are taken away, whether it's one child or several. I definetly see this as problematic. But I'm still on the fence, guess I just have to read and watch more updates.