(Hypothetical) - Dark Secrets

[GrkScorp]

Alright.., so for all the girls out there.., let's say you meet a guy.., and you really like him.. Everything about him just clicks.., his face.., his eyes.., his lips.., his smile.., his jaw.., his facial hair.., his hair.., his body.., the way he dresses.., his voice.., his soft but manly skin.., the way he's so strong and masculine.., but understanding, affectionate and tender at the same time.., thoughtful.. we get the point.. stop bragging.., everything about him is amazing..

Now.., as you think about that guy.., let's just say.., the two of you are together for two weeks.., two great & wonderful weeks.., and those weeks grow into a month.., and before you know it.. that month becomes two.., and three.., and you're still in love..

Now.., things start getting serious.., but before he asks to move in together.., or get engaged.., or meet his parents.., he asks to see your credit report.., bank statements.., and a copy of your two most recent tax returns (after he shows you his own of course)..

The reason.., is implied and understood.., it doesn't need to be explicitly stated.., but maybe it is.., or maybe it isn't when he makes the request.., (his attitude towards financial management and money is very important to him.., and he wants to be with someone who shares a similar and compatible attitude towards finances and money).. He's not interested to see how much of it you have.., he's just interested to see how you manage it.., if you're more of a saver.. or a spender.., if you're the type of person who makes $10,000 but saves $2,000.., or the type of person who makes $100,000 and spends $150,000.., If investments are more important than sports cars or Gucci bags or shoes to you.. (he's very direct and honest about his reasons.., and happy to answer any questions you may have about "why" he wants to know.., but that's pretty much it)

Questions:

- How would you feel?
- Would that make you feel insulted in any way?
- Would you feel your emotional connection to him grow weaker?
- Would you be less attracted to him?
- Would you feel hostile or angry towards him?
- Do you feel there should be some other way to ask this sort of thing?
- Do you feel it's an important question.., or not really?
- Any other comments?

[AnotherPoster]

"Goodbye, darling". He could have the kindest eyes in the world, but such preoccupation with finances is a major red flag, and a reason to let go. I loathe greed and believe money is best in circulation, would never date someone rich (somewhat narrow-minded, certainly, but an excess of money isn't my cup of tea). Checking up on people in this manner is a serious invasion of privacy unless you are sharing an account or cohabiting. Even then, it should be looked over mutually.

For the record, I manage my finances well, but if he made a formal request to see, I'd go out and purchase an expensive strap-on, then kick him out with a sore bum. My boyfriend and I have access to each other's "all things online". What and how I am spending, what and how he is spending, is no secret. The insult lies in the question you're going to/wanting to pose. Evaluating people based on their finances is not a good idea, but I'm sure few of you agree with this.

When we feel the need to ask our lovers for bank statements, the recent capitalist agenda has taken another step in the wrong direction. Do bear in mind that the accuracy of one bank statement can plummet once you see the next. She might be a saver one month and a spender another.

[GrkScorp]

"Goodbye, darling" such preoccupation with finances is a major red flag, and a reason to let go.

Why? What's the reason?

[AnotherPoster]

The reason is right there in the quote. Preoccupation with money. It's not something I can live with. By that same token, you (or she, or whoever) wants to know financial compatibility because it appears to be a recurring reason for divorce. Not flattering, regardless.

[GrkScorp]

The reason is right there in the quote. Preoccupation with money. It's not something I can live with. By that same token, you (or she, or whoever) wants to know financial compatibility because it appears to be a recurring reason for divorce. Not flattering, regardless.

That's not a reason.., that's a feeling..

What is "bad" or "wrong" about wanting to know if you are financially compatible with someone? Why is it so offensive or a red-flag?

Yes.., obviously.., it's a red flag.., for finances and money to matter or be that big of a deal.., but WHY?

[AnotherPoster]

That's not a reason.., that's a feeling..

What is "bad" or "wrong" about wanting to know if you are financially compatible with someone? Why is it so offensive or a red-flag?

No, it's a reason. Feelings are reasons. Empathy is reason. Selection based on $ is reason. Raison d'être...against.
Yes, we reason based on our feelings.

I'm not saying it's bad; I'm saying it's bad for me personally.
Re-read my post. I dislike money and evaluation thereof.

Such an aspect to his personality would not appeal to me, and I must have someone whose character I value. Much like you might not want someone who is preoccupied with being mean towards others. Another aspect one might dislike. A reason not be with this person.

[GrkScorp]

Such an aspect to his personality would not appeal to me, and I must have someone whose character I value. Much like you might not want someone who is preoccupied with being mean towards others. Another aspect one might dislike. A reason not be with this person.

"The law.., is reason.., free from passion" (Aristotle)

In order to explain things clearly.., in a logically sound manner.., it's important to seperate emotions and feelings from reason.., the result.., is logic..

The REASON I would not want to be with someone might be.., because they are a mean person.., but what is the REASON that them being a mean person is "bad" or "wrong"? Because they make me feel angry or hurt for no reason just because they feel like it.., because they embarrass me around other people with their behavior.. and it affects not only my psychological well-being.., but my social reputation aswell.. So if someone has those traits.., that is why I would not want to be with them..

Now.., again.., i'm only asking because i'm interested..

WHY.., is it BAD or WRONG to be financially conscious or concerned over money managemnt? WHAT is BAD or WRONG about it?

Or perhaps.., put an other way.., if you are not ashamed of your financial management abilities or spending/saving habits.., or even attitude towards money.., then why would you feel this way towards such a request? This is someone who's perfect.., who you're in love with.., he's the one.., and he just asked to check to see that you are right for him in every way.., just like checking to see if you think family is important.., or if you are a loving person.., blah blah.., only this is something he can quantify.., and it's heavily documented.. I'm trying to understand for what other reason you would get that reaction aside from just being afraid of the truth and afraid he might discover something you don't feel comfortable with him seeing..

[GrkScorp]

No, it's a reason. Feelings are reasons. Empathy is reason.

Yes, we reason based on our feelings.

Are we going to try and construct or create definitions or restate/redefine existing ones to fit our purpose? No.. some things push my bottons.., this is one of them.. because it makes absolutely no sense..

Just because you reason that way.., doesn't mean it's right.., try and do math with your "feelings" or "empathy".., let's see how far that takes you..

Tell a judge.., I "feel" he's guilty.., therefore he should get the death penalty.., I hope this court can see that there's obviously no need for further proof..

There's no shame in saying that you're having a hard time thinking of a valid reason.., or perhaps putting it into words.., but don't try to go the third route and create this new version of reality just to beat around the bush.., that doesn't help anyone..

So.., no.., you didn't provide a reason.., and i'm still interested to know "why" you think or feel the way you do about this.., and i'm positive you can think of a reason.., when you do.., i'm interested to know what that reason is..

Best,

GrkScorp

[AnotherPoster]

"The law.., is reason.., free from passion" (Aristotle)

In order to explain things clearly.., in a logically sound manner.., it's important to seperate emotions and feelings from reason.., the result.., is logic..

Ah, but I believe in feeling more so than logic, and don't wish to separate the two. Too many logical fallacies around.

Currently, no law is free from passion, or the judicial system wouldn't be so corrupt.
Aristotle is not the quintessential element in the realm of philosophy. What that particular philosopher states and what more emotivist philosophers would say naturally differs (if you're looking for a philosophised defense of Emotivism, you won't get it here). We are each our own philosopher. I don't adhere to other people's beliefs, no matter how famous a name.

WHY.., is it BAD or WRONG to be financially conscious or concerned over money managemnt? WHAT is BAD or WRONG about it?

The fact that you want to plan out your life in accordance with your finances, rather than in accordance with your spontaneity. Money is placed on a pedestal. If it needs to be checked (as you say that family ties and loving nature need to be, as well), this indicates that it is important. Of high importance, even. And money should never be that important.

I don't think he should be checking if I am a loving person either, or if my family is important. He should feel it.

Because they make me feel angry or hurt

Yes. On top of that, he would be enforcing capitalist ideals (indirectly) and furthering the importance of money - which should be toned down.

This is someone who's perfect.., who you're in love with.., he's the one..

He is not the one if he checks my bank account prior to commitment. He is the one if we've seen each other's bank accounts plenty of times without ever making an issue out of it. Furthermore, I don't date perfection.


I know you're interested, GrkScorp, and this is the perspective I can offer, to the best of my knowledge. Thanks for challenging it.

[AnotherPoster]

Just because you reason that way.., doesn't mean it's right.., try and do math with your "feelings" or "empathy".., let's see how far that takes you..

I never said it was. I like to be proven wrong.

And maths is an affinity.

This attitude has taken me far in life.

[vashti]

I think a person has a right to know about debt if they plan to marry. Otherwise, no. However, you can usually get a pretty good idea of how someone manages and values money by the way they spend it, so it shouldn't be necessary to ask for their tax info. If a person is working at a low level job, but is buying high end items on a regular basis, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that she/he is going to have a deficit at some point. Another red flag is if they are always broke or use credit cards to pay for everything.

Quite honestly, I think it is foolish to marry someone who is in debt and spends frivolously. It seems quite excessive to ask to see bank statements, though. The way a couple will manage their finances after they marry is a subject that needs to be negotiated. Expecting that someone saves and invests their own money before they marry exactly as you would like them to seems controlling, and would be a gigantic red flag to me.

[IndiReloaded]

GS, I think the issue may be not so much that you want to get an idea of a potential partner’s sense of financial responsibility, but what you are asking for as ‘proof’. I think the reasons have to do with concerns about only being interested in someone b/c of their money.

I would never provide the documents you mention to someone I was merely dating, even for several intense months. At minimum, I would need to be living with them & most likely engaged to be married. Call me paranoid, but you are asking for info that would make it easy for someone to engage in identity/financial fraud. What if you broke up? Other than my husband, the only one who gets that kind of info is our accountant. And even my spouse & I have our own accounts & spending money.

Now, if you are considering marriage, I think it’s reasonable to ask about assets, debt, investments, income. Especially if there is a large discrepancy b/t partners & you are considering a prenup. Nowadays, ppl own entire homes, 401Ks, etc before getting married. I happen to think that, just in case a marriage dissolves, partners should each leave w/what they came in with & split whatever was earned during the marriage. That said, I still think there are more subtle ways to ask for the early info. Presumably your partner will know by then you are a tax accountant, so it is perfectly reasonable that you would help them with their return at some point. You’ll already know about her job & her lifestyle based on observation.

Hope this helps.

[IndiReloaded]

Ah, but I believe in feeling more so than logic, and don't wish to separate the two. Too many logical fallacies around.

Currently, no law is free from passion, or the judicial system wouldn't be so corrupt.
Aristotle is not the quintessential element in the realm of philosophy. What that particular philosopher states and what more emotivist philosophers would say naturally differs (if you're looking for a philosophised defense of Emotivism, you won't get it here). We are each our own philosopher. I don't adhere to other people's beliefs, no matter how famous a name.

What the hell are you on about, AP? You're spewing all kinds of philosophical babble that, at the end of the day, doesn't pay your rent & doesn't get you fed. How old are you?

The fact that logical fallacies exist isn't a reason to discard logic.

Relationships can't LIVE on feelings. I'm not saying love isn't important, but there are practical issues that need addressing in order to be able to have the freedom to explore those feelings.

In other words, its hard to love somebody when the collection agency is knocking at your door.

[misombra]

you can tell how well a person manages their money without getting into all that.

[Tiay]

- How would you feel?

a bit miffed that my lack of brand name clothes and my scavenging only the sale rack at Old Navy would not have tipped him off.

- Would that make you feel insulted in any way?

a bit yes.... mainly because if he knew me he'd probably know most of that stuff about me already..

- Would you feel your emotional connection to him grow weaker?

- Would you be less attracted to him?

ummm.. that would depend on how it's handled. Like if it escalated into a big spat somehow! But that's unlikely so i'll say no, not on the long run anyway.

- Would you feel hostile or angry towards him?

nope.

- Do you feel there should be some other way to ask this sort of thing?

um, yes. Miso said it. Heck if this hypothetical guy knew me at all he'd know what I'm like with money. You find this stuff out when you're planning holidays together or go shopping for anything really. Heck my feelings about overspending on credit cards would surely have come up in conversation. So then asking for my records just seems like a display of distrust.
Or if had not come up in conversation in as much depth as he was looking for, he could've started a conversation about it, rather than demanding papers.

- Do you feel it's an important question.., or not really?

it's an important issue, but I don't think he'd have to ask quite so directly. see above.

- Any other comments?

why are you asking?