Point Counterpoint

[DoesntMatter]

"Real power comes from the barrel of a gun" -

I really don't pay attention to feminists or whoever saying "Women are gaining more power!" or men complaining "Men are losing power!". It's pretty ****ing goofy to describe it that way. Besides, if you feel like you need to be vocal about it, it makes me think you really don't have any

But yeah, I definitely want what CAM is talking about. I also want to own a Lamborghini someday. The second one will be a hell of a lot easier

[CAM]

If the 'reality' is that women currently rule the roost, well, a smart male will accept that is so & take advantage of it, no?

Well...what would the advantage be? It is not an issue of being "smart" about it. There is no "advantage"...it is just a capitulation so as to reproduce.

Reproduction was done out of necessity at one time, but is no longer a necessity, unless of course it would be important to me to pass along my earthly possessions to another generation. The emotional draw of passing it all along to someone else seems hardly worth the effort "if" that is the only motive.

Like I said, deep down I am a romantic and would therefore only marry if I loved the person...and I would not love a woman who was more connected to her gender than to the relationship with me. In other words, I seek a private relationship than a relationship built on gender politics.

But all of this...is just a repeat of an earlier thread. I was agreeing/disagreeing with someone else about their comment to Mis regarding prostitution...so, we're getting far afield here

Goodnight.

[CAM]

But yeah, I definitely want what CAM is talking about. I also want to own a Lamborghini someday. The second one will be a hell of a lot easier

Don't bet on the Lamborghini ! By the time you can afford it, gasoline will be $12 per gallon

[CAM]

...and bar fly women will still only cost 2 drinks (at least according to my colleague (again, refer back to the original purpose of the thread, folks).

[vashti]

I really don't pay attention to feminists or whoever saying "Women are gaining more power!" or men complaining "Men are losing power!". It's pretty ****ing goofy to describe it that way. Besides, if you feel like you need to be vocal about it, it makes me think you really don't have any

Of course it is silly. Everyone wants to be a victim. For the overwhelmingly vast majority of people, there is no formal agenda, and "power" is fluid. There have always been weak men and strong men, weak women and strong women. Sure, they may have had to hide it better, but the dynamic was always there. Human nature is unchanging.

[IndiReloaded]

Well...what would the advantage be? It is not an issue of being "smart" about it. There is no "advantage"...it is just a capitulation so as to reproduce.

But all of this...is just a repeat of an earlier thread. I was agreeing/disagreeing with someone else about their comment to Mis regarding prostitution...so, we're getting far afield here

True. Well, in this case, I suppose the fellow who sleeps w/bar women might get 'lucky' and pass his genes onto the occassional stupid woman. I bet the prostitute is *much* more careful about that sort of thing.

Cam, its not about passing on your *stuff*, man, its about passing on your genes. Tho I suppose your stuff might make a nice enviromental background for those genes. That's the problem that modern males face, IMO. Convincing a woman to bear his child. In that sense, this society is on the losing front.

But I think this also touches on a previous thread, yes?

Wait till someone invents a functioning artifical womb. THEN shit will hit the fan, oh yes indeed.

[CAM]

Cam, its not about passing on your *stuff*, man, its about passing on your genes. Tho I suppose your stuff might make a nice enviromental background for those genes. That's the problem that modern males face, IMO. Convincing a woman to bear his child. In that sense, this society is on the losing front.

But I think this also touches on a previous thread, yes?

Wait till someone invents a functioning artifical womb. THEN shit will hit the fan, oh yes indeed.

Who wants my genes? For god's sake...while I'm in very good shape at the moment...I'm essentially a terminally ill genius who could come out of remission at any time. I want nothing more than two things: intellectual accomplishment and real love. Reproduction would be a plus, if she was the right woman. Sexual intercourse for pleasure is nice, but not required by any means. I'd rather she made me a good meal and a good cup of coffee and just loved me. I would do the same for her.

[CAM]

Wait till someone invents a functioning artifical womb. THEN shit will hit the fan, oh yes indeed.

Huxley's Brave New World. It is soon to be here. Unfortunately. Perhaps women who wish not to reproduce are filled with intuition. They realize that gender will soon mean nothing at all. Sad, isn't it? Humanity without humanity.

[Junket]

Human beings have this strange obsession of attempting to remove emotion (as well as instinct) as a means to achieve greater objectivity.

The problem with this is that humans are inherently bound to emotion and instinct. Our transcendence over emotion and instinct is only temporary just as our science and technology. Neither can evolve without us. So what if they do invent an artificial womb? They're already claiming they discovered a means for women to reproduce without men.

But what's the point?

Really?

Until humans can be genetically altered to perform such asexual physiological functions, all these "advances" in technology are frivolous.

Humanity is clearly insecure with itself.

We take more meds, put on more make-up, try new diets all in hopes we can prove to nature we're better.

Think we'll ever figure out that she isn't listening?

[CAM]

Excellent points above--I agree.

[DoesntMatter]

Human beings have this strange obsession of attempting to remove emotion (as well as instinct) as a means to achieve greater objectivity.

The problem with this is that humans are inherently bound to emotion and instinct. Our transcendence over emotion and instinct is only temporary just as our science and technology. Neither can evolve without us. So what if they do invent an artificial womb? They're already claiming they discovered a means for women to reproduce without men.

But what's the point?

Really?

Until humans can be genetically altered to perform such asexual physiological functions, all these "advances" in technology are frivolous.

Humanity is clearly insecure with itself.

We take more meds, put on more make-up, try new diets all in hopes we can prove to nature we're better.

Think we'll ever figure out that she isn't listening?

LOL what?? Who's trying to prove that we're better than nature? We're just trying to make our situation better through meds and stuff. Smart drugs too! I have no doubt in the future we will be able to alter our genetic information somehow to make ourselves smarter. Right now we have nootropics that will make you smarter but won't change your genetic makeup... But yeah, it's fun to discover new stuff like that and learn about our world

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by removing emotion to achieve objectivity... in what sense? I mean, if you read a patent on a chemical process or go through a math proof, there isn't anywhere to even EXPRESS emotion...

Ahah! Technology can now evolve without us. A friend of mine here at school (a fellow biochem major but he's really into evolution) showed me research that is being done regarding the ramifications of evolution on technology. Without getting into the details of it, an experiment in hardware evolution was done, and the researchers were capable of using a chip to evolve on its own and work in an increasingly efficient manner. Originally it had the task of voice recognition, and began at some percent, and the end result after like 2,000 "reproductions" was a program (in this case for voice recognition) capable of operating at what was considered 100% effecieny. Furthermore, it only used like 37 logic gates of the original 100! And chips originally use 10,000 I believe, but the researchers wanted to start it off with 100. NASA also did something like this to produce antennas designed by such means, and the result was the most bizarre looking yet highly functioning antennas. Sorry for the tangent, but it was so damn interesting!

So naw, I disagree. I think people take meds to prevent sickness. It really doesn't make much effort to swallow a pill and it could you quite a bit. People put on make-up to look good, I have no complaints. I don't wear makeup or bother with my appearance much anymore, but that's because I'm not here to impress anyone with my looks. Fuuck that shit it doesn't work. The diets are way too faddish.. Remember that Atkins diet craze? Wore off kind of quick didn't it?

[Junket]

LOL what?? Who's trying to prove that we're better than nature? We're just trying to make our situation better through meds and stuff.

If you were following the thread you'd notice individuals trying to apply abstract logic to things as simple as lust and love. We're constantly trying to rationalize things, explain what and why. Complicating things far more than they need be. I wasn't referring to something like a math proof, then again, math like science is another means for humans to try to make sense and apply logic to the rest of the world.

Technology evolves because we program it to evolve. It has no conscious nor drive for survival, and will virtually "die" once we no longer provide it a means to energy, or offer maintenance.

So naw, I disagree. I think people take meds to prevent sickness.

This doesn't disagree with the point I was making at all.

People put on make-up to look good, I have no complaints.

To use this as a means to expand upon my point which you seem to be trying to argue. Exactly, people use make-up to hide what nature has already provided. Out of insecurity, even in the most remote sense. Otherwise, why bother if you were absolutely content with your image?

The diets are another way people try to "beat the system". When you consider how so many jobs require so little labor, but still so much time, who wouldn't want a man made miracle?

We're just trying to make our situation better through meds and stuff.

Um...yeah. That doesn't counter my point at all. My point being humans haven't changed. No matter how smart we get, how many inventions we devise, diseases we cure.

I think as a whole, our outlook on life is much more complex than our living it.

[DoesntMatter]

Is the goal of humanity to change our genetic code? I don't see where you are going- Medications don't change our species but they help an individual. Our actions don't need to be justified by whether or not they will genetically change us.

Humanity is insecure with itself? You're talking about other people using abstract logic, but pull this out of your ass.

You said people make lust and love out to be more complicated than it is. Then what are you doing giving reasons as to why people take medications and put on makeup? I think any justification other than to cure an illness or look better is making it more complex than it is.

The world we live in is not simple at all. There is seriously no end in sight to it's complexity- I remember when my optician told me math was just about adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing, and everything else was peoploe making it harder than it has to be. Yeah, right

[Junket]

Is the goal of humanity to change our genetic code?

No. We don't need to worry about that.

Our actions don't need to be justified by whether or not they will genetically change us.

You are referring to...what?

Humanity is insecure with itself? You're talking about other people using abstract logic, but pull this out of your ass.

We're way off base here, I was much more specific than blatantly condemning the use of abstract thought.

You said people make lust and love out to be more complicated than it is. Then what are you doing giving reasons as to why people take medications and put on makeup? I think any justification other than to cure an illness or look better is making it more complex than it is.

I was combining the my criticism of what was being said in this thread with what I've recently read in an article about test tube babies (can't find the article). Relating them (in my own mind) on how they're both examples of people trying out-do nature. This would probably explain why there's some confusion, because I'm not getting my point across to you, and I find myself caught arguing against points you make that I actually agree with.

The world we live in is not simple at all.

I think as a whole, our outlook on life is much more complex than our living it.

These two statements convey two different things.

The world we live in is complex.

However we obviously did not always have the knowledge we hold today. With our discoveries and advancements in research, the world has only become "more" complex.

But that being said, this very discussion is proof that we complicate things more than they need be. At least in our minds. Tonight I will go to bed.
Tomorrow I will wake up and eat.
Next week I'll be ****ing.
Who knows when, I will die.

Simple.

Really though, the original post was a rant, and ended with a rhetorical question.

[DoesntMatter]

We're way off base here, I was much more specific than blatantly condemning the use of abstract thought.


Really though, the original post was a rant, and ended with a rhetorical question.

I generally hate abstract thought so I misread that.

Ya I know it was a rant, but I just wanted to throw something out there