circumcision

[vashti]

Damn, Neo beat me.

[Tiay]

Yeah, that statistic is questionable. People in Africa don't know how to protect themselves, lots of other factors, etc... in those circumstances, yes it does make a difference, but it's not relevant.

*sigh* I'm going to have to link this thing again. I figure a lot of you will be parents, so go listen. entire thing... it's fun. [URL="http://archive-a02.libsyn.com/podcasts/613578db4d97c1bb70fc40cf37203065/45df799a/sexisfun/48circumcision.mp3"]here[/URL].

[vashti]

Yeah, that statistic is questionable. People in Africa don't know how to protect themselves, lots of other factors, etc... in those circumstances, yes it does make a difference, but it's not relevant.

*sigh* I'm going to have to link this thing again. I figure a lot of you will be parents, so go listen. entire thing... it's fun. [URL="http://archive-a02.libsyn.com/podcasts/613578db4d97c1bb70fc40cf37203065/45df799a/sexisfun/48circumcision.mp3"]here[/URL].

I couldn't open your link, but how is the statistic questionable? They have had multiple studies come up with the same conclusion, and if circumcision makes a difference, how is it not relevant? If biologically it is easier to enter the body through the foreskin than it is elsewhere, how would that NOT be relevant to controlling the spread of disease?

[The Great OV!!!]

Vashti has a fetish for circumcised men.

[Tiay]

vash, that link is just an mp3 file.. what browser are you using? god please I hope it's not IE. Try right clicking to the the lil menu and selecting download or save to disk or whatever it is, and then opening it in an mp3 player. sure, there's some matters of opinion in there, but the facts are referenced.

It's not relevant because the population of Africa is completely different. They are facing a serious fight over there. And they can't just go "here's your condom, use it", so in that situation, it does seem to make more sense.

It's not like the foreskin is like an appendix, like oh well don't need it anyway, might as well cut it out. And even with the appendix- you keep it till you really gotta take it out.
Imagine YOUR hood was cut off. You'd become very desensitised because cotton would be rubbing on your clit all day. That's basically what happens with cut guys.
It's hard to come by proper studies for this. But definitely, those who can compare objectively often say that cut guys require a lot more hard reaming which causes way too much friction for the woman, whereas uncut guys can do the slow gentle stuff that a lot of us prefer- actually, too many american women have no idea what that is even like, so you may not even know you prefer it. The uncut penis also creates lube! gee, isn't that on the top of the list for firstimers "do PLENTY of foreplay so that you're all lubed".. well, there's a reason it's missing in the first place. Also, many cut guys say they can't orgasm after a certain length of time, because they just get desensitised. Whereas if they had a foreskin, there'd be less friction. I could go on and on; not circumcising has tons of benefits for both genders. It is just logical that not lopping off bits of genitals is just plain better for sex.

Also, part of the frenulum gets cut off- so it's like your hood and a bit of your clit getting chopped off without consent, when you could've easily decided later, say before having sex but after, you know, being a happy little kid that doesn't have *ANY* risk of catching anything that way cos.. you're not having any sex. If I was a guy, I'd much rather be given the choice, and I think i'd choose using condoms and being smart about sex, rather than getting it cut. However, you can't make thousands of guys in africa wear condoms. it just doesn't work. Under the foreskin is just a nice place for viruses to hang out, if they're given the chance; so if you have a spreading epidemic and you can't get people to use the best preventative.. then it might be preferrable to give up a little pleasure in the name of safety. Heck they don't even have water to drink much less wash themselves with!

But in non third world countries.. we don't have that problem.

so yeah.. there was my giant rant

[Tiay]

so... to go on an other giant rant.. to compare the study that compared uncut and cut African males to another survey of uncut and cut Australian males. In Australia, the majority of males are uncircumcised.

Current advice to parents from the Paediatrics and Child Health Division of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians is based on a review and policy statement that concludes that ‘there is no medical indication for routine male circumcision'

(link: [url]http://www.cirp.org/library/general/richters1/[/url])

There is some evidence that uncircumcised men may be more prone to STIs, particularly ulcerative disease.7–9 However, recent evidence that this is the case in developed countries is comparatively sparse. The United States National Health and Social Life Survey (NHSLS) found no protective effect of circumcision.10 Nor did the 2000 British National Survey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles.11 No previous population-based studies in Australia have examined the relationship between circumcision status and STI history. A study in a Sydney sexual health clinic concluded that circumcision had no significant effect on the incidence of common STIs, but the authors remarked that this finding might not extend to other settings with poorer hygiene and a different spectrum of infections.

liike, say.. Africa?

and most notably, that study also said:

"HIV infection was not included in the list of STIs because too few men reported being HIV-positive (0.1&#37 to allow analysis by circumcision status."

My conclusion from all this: The reason for HIV occurrence isn't solely circumcision, it's also the development of the country. Once a country is developed enough, there is no need to use circumcision as a preventative.

For instance.. Irelands HIV AIDS incidence is the third lowest in Europe. Yet the great majority of the male population is uncircumcised.

[Gigabitch]

I like the idea of leaving a boy intact and letting him choose later.

[Tiay]

yeah, I reckon most guys would want to keep their bits. Then again, I did stumble upon a site called circlist.com and they seem to love the idea of chopping bits off. One guy even says "..To totally free the skin from the head, the frenulum MUST be removed. Make sure the doc tugs up the skin where the frenulum was in order to get a smooth result there!"

That's almost like me saying I want to have my clit cut out to make it look nice and smooth. Horrible, horrible idea!


and because i'm a statistic junkie;

stats:

1. Country where majority of men are uncut. List from wikipedia, quote: "The following countries have published sources that indicate that the majority of males are not circumcised" [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_worldwide[/url]

The list of countries where it is believed that the majority of males are uncut is much longer, but i'll just focus on the shorter one to save time.

2. HIV AIDS prevalence rate

3. Number of people living with HIV AIDS per capita (ie: x per 1,000 people)

4. Per capita total expenditure on health in international dollars

(mostly from nationmaster.com)


1_____________2_________3_________4

Australia_____  0.1 %______0.691_____2,699
Austria_______ 0.3 %______1.221_____2,220
Belgium______ 0.2 %______0.963 ____ 2,515
Canada_______ 0.3 %______1.692_____2,931
China_________0.1 %______0.639_______261
Denmark______(n/a)_______0.917_____2,583
Finland________(n/a)______ 0.287_____1,943
France________ 0.4 %______1.971_____2,736
Germany______ 0.1 %______0.522_____2,817
Iceland________0.2 %______0.735_____2,802
Indonesia______0.1 %______0.448______ 110
Ireland________0.1 %______0.689_____2,367
Japan_________(n/a)_______0.094_____2,133
Namibia______21.3 %____102.732_______331
Netherlands____0.2 %______1.152_____2,564
New Zealand___0.1 %______0.343_____1,857
Norway________0.1 %______0.455_____3,409
Swaziland_____38.8 %____193.605_______309
Sweden________0.1 %______0.399_____2,512
Switzerland_____0.4 %______1.728_____3,446
UK____________0.2 %______ 0.841_____2,160
Zambia_______ 16.5 %_____ 79.986_______ 51
Zimbabwe_____24.6 %_____147.097_______40?*

*:I could only find this stat at average exchange rate rather than international dollars. I dunno what that means

these are countries where the majority of men are uncut. The occurrence of HIV/AIDS seems to have nothing at all to do with circumcision, but with the development of the country (I figured investment in health was a good example to show). I know I haven't compared this with a list of countries where the majority of men ARE circumcised, but the list is so ****ing long that I can't be bothered to do them all. An obvious one would be the USA though:

USA_______0.6 %______3.183_____5,274


There are obviously many factors at play here. for instance, Austria spends 2,220 on health and has more people living with HIV/AIDS than Indonesia, which only spends 110. But mostly it matches up pretty well. Lots of other factors are in play.

I will be the first to say that you can't prove anything with statistics., you can only suggest the likelihood of something.

[Junket]

Well, I didn't have a choice in the matter either, not to forget how much of sex is actually mental, cut or uncut, I think most guys could probably bust within' the first few minutes of sex if they wanted to, hell even within seconds.

[Gigabitch]

Don't any of you guys resent the fact that part of your dick was cut off before you could even sit upright?

[The Great OV!!!]

Mine wasn't

[Gigabitch]

And are you ready to give your foreskin up now, OV?

[Junket]

Don't you remember Giga?

Ignorance is bliss.

[misombra]

i have a conspiracy theory about aids...

[Gigabitch]

i have a conspiracy theory about aids...

Well, don't hide that light under a bushel, girl. Out with it!