Lying - Enough is Enough

[independent]

In my [URL=http://www.loveforum.net/t10125-ignorance-is-bliss.html]last post[/URL] I shared a really crazy story that my "ex" told the other day that happened to make its way back to me. It was a blatant lie, with no point at all (not a lie to get out of trouble, or a lie to make him look good - just a really crazy made-up story that made no sense).

Anyway, I've said before that he lies pretty consistent, and that was one of the reasons (among many) that I asked him to move out recently. He is out now along with most of his things, though there are a few of this things left here (linens, tools, dishes etc).

He was irate at first, but has since calmed down and is apologetic and is acting like Mr Nice Guy. "Willing to straighten himself out and work on things between us" kind of thing.

The big lie he told to mutual friends earlier this week really blew me away. It actually made me realize that I dont know him nearly as well as I thought I did - and made me worry about what was wrong with him... obviously way out there to tell such an insane lie. So I am wary, to say the very least.

I havent really talked to him in the last couple of days. I've kept it short even when he called me. Still just having a hard time even looking at him knowing he could be so crazy on the inside (looking perfectly normal on the outside).

Last night though, we had to play in the same building (same league, different teams). Not much contact, but when I tried to slip on out afterwards he caught me and asked how our team did... then said "I'll call you when we're through". I just nodded and left.

I didnt plan on answering the phone. I came home, locked my doors, and sat up awhile to wind down. An hour went by and he didnt call. Another hour went by and he didnt call. It was almost midnight by then, so I kind of laughed about it and thought "what an ass".

But then he did call just after 12:30. Completely inappropriate as I have children in the house - and I have to be up at 5:30 (and he knows both of those things). He told me this big long story of why he was so late calling, but then said he didnt just want to not call me at all. Apparently some chaos there after their game last night.

Whatever. I didnt have much to say and let him go pretty quick.


So I was talking to my friend this afternoon on the phone - which happens to be the same lady he told the big nutso story to the other day. She was telling me how HER night went last night... A group of them had left after the game and all went out to another bar and were drinking (my "ex" included). So when he called me in the middle of the night last night... he was leaving *another* bar. Not at all the story he fed me on the phone last night.

There was absolutely no point to any of it. He should have never said "I'll call you when we're done". And he should have never called me at that late hour (disrespectful). But when he did - WHY LIE? It'd be different if he was out with another woman and wanted to hide that fact, but he wasnt - he was with some friends we both know.

The story he made up last night was not as bad as the one he told earlier this week... but the same concept. It was based on facts that DID happen, and embellished to include outright lies. That totally weirds me out.


I know what I have to do. I need to pack up the rest of his little things lying around here... and put them outside for him to come get. And I need to tell him not to call me or bother me anymore. He wont just stop, I will have to confront him (which I really dislike).

The weird thing is that outside of these crazy lies... he is being very nice. Just calling to see how I am. Or calling to ask me to breakfast. Doing all the right things - giving me the space I asked for, staying elsewhere, etc. He has no idea I know about the lies, by the way - so he is just going on with his "act". And that's all I see it for.


It makes me sick to know that everytime my phone rings, I'm asking to be lied to if I answer it. That's so juvenile. We are in our 30's for goodness sake.


I dread the confrontation. I worry he'll turn irate on me again. I wish I knew of a way to do it that would make it easier. I wish I could tell him what I think of his lies, too - but he would just lie again to cover them up (always does) so it is so pointless.

I halfway think it would be wise to do this in the company of the people he has told differing stories to. But that seems a little cruel.


Thanks for listening - just needed to vent more than anything.

[whaywardj]

...I halfway think it would be wise to do this in the company of the people he has told differing stories to. But that seems a little cruel...

Hm. Seems more to me like something I'd do by way of intervention. If that's what you want to do, intervene in a an effort to open his eyes, that would be the way to go about it.

On the other hand, maybe you've got your intentions a little blurred. Maybe, what you're wanting to do is pack his stuff as stated, and tell him what you want as stated IN THE PRESENCE of a second (or third or fourth) party...perhaps, even, someone with whom you both have regular, periodic contact. That would take the matter out of the private circle, where anything could happen, and put in a public one, where distasteful things are less likely to happen. It would also put added peer pressure on him to leave you alone once you've told him to.

Just a thought.

[independent]

I would be fooling myself to believe that anything I could say or do would affect him, and/or inspire him to change. It's not like I didnt try over various issues during our 2-yr relationship.

Add to that the fact that I am not the type of person who seeks out or even enjoys "drama"...

Which takes me back to hoping that I can go through with this quickly and quietly. I feel calm about the decision (no inner chaos about it at all), and need to just get it done and over with.

I am somewhat pensive about the whole ordeal, I suppose. I do care about him and I find myself hoping he can get it all worked out (for his own sake). When you love someone this deeply (even if you are being duped the entire time, without realizing it), it doesnt just turn off like a light switch.

It changes into something else I suppose. Which is what I'm going through right now (have been, probably will continue on for a bit until it changes so much I dont even recognize it anymore)...

I think I can handle this one. I'll either call or write it in a letter and then leave his things for him where he can get them himself. Everything was already "said and done" when he got moved out anyway... it's not like I owe him an "in person" explanation at this point (IMO). I'd rather keep it calm and civil.

Sound like a good plan to you guys?

[mini696]

The guys an ass... Just remove yourself from him completely.

He probably wanted to phone you earlier, but was too chickenshit to do it. So when he finally got the dutch courage up to phone, he had to make up a crap excuse.

The earlier lie to his friends about being in jail was probably to hide the fact he was with you. Maybe his friends dont like you, or have told him he shouldn't be with you. So he covered his ass by making himself look "cool" saying he was in jail.

He just makes up these lies to hide the real truth *well duh Mick*. He's afraid of looking like a lesser person, and wants to keep his friends and you. He probably feels if he is honest he cant keep them all, so he lies.

The problem with lying is it takes more lies to cover up the previous ones, and you end up having to remember all the lies you told and who you told them too. Eventually everyone will know he's a lier and punch him in the goolies.

[Rosebud]

Sound like a good plan to you guys?

Yes it does. I'm glad your so confident in this and your taking care fo things you feel you need to. Your going about this all the right way. You don't need that in your life. Even if there's no reason to lie he seemed to do it anyways and he seems to be a compulsive liar. So it's a good thing your doing what your doing. Everything you said sounds very good.

[independent]

Agreed. The odd thing about the earlier lie (about jail) was that he told them he was with me. He even used the same details of what really happened that night - where we were, etc - just embellished the story to an insane extent.

He even told them I bonded him out (laugh).

These are his friends - he's known them longer than I have - but friends of mine as well. People I would see around town on a regular basis... which is really odd. He had to worry the whole thing would get back to me.

Anyway, it just makes me worry about what's REALLY going on up there in his head. He acts so "normal" otherwise that nobody would suspect all of this. Which leaves me wondering what else is going through his mind that I should be wary of. Ya know?

[independent]

Yes it does. I'm glad your so confident in this and your taking care fo things you feel you need to. Your going about this all the right way. You don't need that in your life. Even if there's no reason to lie he seemed to do it anyways and he seems to be a compulsive liar. So it's a good thing your doing what your doing. Everything you said sounds very good.

Thank you. It helps a lot to get a bit of confirmation.

I look forward to better days - where this is not a part of my everyday life.

[Rosebud]

Yeah I can understand that! But you sound like you have a very level head on your shoulders so you should have nothing to worry about.

[independent]

Thank you, Rose.

I've felt a lot better today than I have in weeks. I've been getting things in order around the house, and starting to put his things together. This is really the only choice that I have, given all of the circumstances. That's sad. I guess I will always look back on this relationship and be sadly disappointed with his decisions. He has so much potential, it seems. But then I guess everybody has "potential".

I'm not good at putting up a front, or acting some way that goes against how I am feeling. I am sure he can sense that I have already let go, and I will need to say the final words to him at first opportunity.

I do want to have all of his things ready for him beforehand... and I have two children, so I want to choose my timing carefully so as not to "create a situation" that I cant control. Not that I am a "control freak" - just that it is my job as their mother to keep a secure and stable environment for them... which is important to me. The less stress the better - for all of us.

Its all still so crazy to me. He is Mr Nice Guy all week this week, and then doing these other things at the same time. I dont know how someone can live that kind of double life. I am sure that he has deceived me many many times over the course of our 2-yr relationship... so maybe he has gotten to the point of having no guilty concious over it.

He called this afternoon. I was brief, still cannot find words to say to him. I feel like Eve, when she ate from the tree of knowledge. Nothing is what it seemed before. Now I know.

I think I'll go shopping this weekend. Since he moved out I have been re-doing things around the house. It makes me feel better. It might be nice to get out and pick out some new curtains or a new bookshelf.

Anything to get all of this off my mind. Because right now I am just sitting around feeling STUPID.

[Rosebud]

LOL... you sound like me. I like change especially when something big happens. I'm known for changing my look and moving furniture around..LOL

But in all seriousness, you shouldn't feel stupid. I'm sure he is a very good person but he's just not for you. If you really don't want to talk to him, don't answer the phone. I mean not that your doing anything wrong but it almost seems as though your ok and handling things and then he calls and then you remember everything that's happened and go right back to where to were. I have a child as well and I completely know what you mean about a stress free enviroment. Do you know where he's staying? Maybe you could drop the stuff where he is living when he's not there and your kids aren't around there avoiding all confrontation. I think not speaking to him would be best as you never know what may come out of his mouth and then you may say something to him and that would only get you all worked up again, which you don't need!

[independent]

Yeah, he is staying with his sister. I know he doesnt have much space over there, and I dont want to dump this stuff on his sister. He has a storage building, so he just needs to come over and get it himself. I can put it in the carport so that it doesnt have to be when I am home even. Besides, I've done enough work. I moved all of his furniture out for him when he moved out (grr).

Anyway, as for not answering - I tried that. If I dont pick up either phone, he shows up within minutes. He's not one to take no for an answer if you know what I mean. And I dont want to get him all riled up, so I just answer and keep it quick. Usually I am truly busy with something else so it's not like I am deceiving him in any way.

Besides, I feel the same before during and after the call. I was really emotional about this in the beginning... but I am just sort of "blah" about it all at the moment. I think I've had enough. More than enough. I dont feel quite so attached to it anymore... now that I am realizing just how bad it all is.


One thing you said kinda stuck out at me: I'm sure he is a very good person but he's just not for you. - I'm not so sure I accept that. Nothing against you, Rose, I'm not even sure you meant it like I read it.

A "very good person" doesnt lie to the person they love, or show a total lack of respect by coming in drunk and late - or calling in the middle of the night. Dont get me wrong... the things I liked about him all along are great things. Like I said, he has a lot of potential in my eyes... and what was good about "us" was *really* good. But the bad things are worse than "bad"... and not tolerable at all.

The second part, "he's just not for you"... well, I know that he loves me. I dont doubt that. Why would he bother, otherwise? But then he's fooled me before hahaha. Anyway, I think if he somehow fixed all of these things I cant handle... we'd be great for each other. We were good together in a lot of ways. Otherwise I wouldnt have stuck it out for two solid years - if I didnt think there was something there to work with. Something worth working on.

And if he's "not for me", does that mean he is okay (status quo) for someone else? Personally, I dont think so. I dont think anyone woman should have to put up with this... or would want to be lied to (or even tolerate it).

I hope over time that he gets past all of this. I hope that he "grows up", for lack of a better term, and gets to a point in life that he is independent and happy and settled down into an enjoyable lifestyle. But then, maybe he thinks he is happy now. And maybe he is. But I know him well enough to know that he wants a woman in his life, so hopefully that will be motivation enough for him to make some changes. To compromise small things to make room for a healthy relationship.

On a bad day I might say to you that I wish I had been woman enough to be that motivation.

[Rosebud]

By saying " I'm sure he is a very good person but not for you" I was acknowledging your remark of him having potential and being so nice lately. I agree with everything you said. Nobody deserves to be lied to treated that way if they are truly cared for. There are people put there that are good people but they are compulsive liars. That comes from within them and issues they ave with themself. They try to make themselves look better no matter what the siutaion is. They are attention getters. So in no way did I mean to condone what he has done. I was politely saying he's not for you right now! I'm not saying it's ok for him to lie to someone else either but if that's who he is and has been like this, that's WHO HE IS and he's not for you because you don't take lightly to this sort of thing. I didn't mean to offend you, I just meant to say some people accept things and some people don't hun!

[independent]

Oh I wasnt offended, Rose Just clarifying points is all.

Honestly, I've known him to lie most of the time I've known him. It started with lies he said *around me* (to other people). And then to me (at least the ones I knew beyond any doubt - many others I just doubted).

And I DID accept that as a part of him for a long time. I didnt like it, but I put up with it... because it seemed minor in the grand scheme of things. And maybe I thought enough time with me - things being secure and comfortable and such - that he would get past all of that.

Anyway, it was the big lie earlier in the week that was so "out there" that really blew me away and made me realize I couldnt relax and know what to expect around him (realizing I had no clue how his mind was working). And then to lie to me again last night like he did... well, it really put things in perspective. It's senseless, in my opinion.

I deserve more than that. I deserve at least what I offer myself.

[whaywardj]

Good exchange, guys. I see a nice friendship developing. And I laughed, too, when I read "shopping" and "rearranging." Reminded me of "guys get mad; girls go shopping" And me! That's JUST what I do after big, unpleasant events like breakups, Rosebud: Re-decorate! Feels like I'm cleaning out all the residual vibes of the sad affair and putting new faces on things, including myself.

And I think I agree with Independent. I see no redeeming qualities in the man, as yet. No "nice guy" under it all. I have no doubt Independent wasn't the only woman he's ever treated that way, nor the only person he lies to.

And Independent, what do you mean why else would he stay if he didn't love you? Go back and read your first post. If I could work only when I wanted and still have a roof over my head and food in my stomach, pay bills only when I wanted, come and go as I pleased and so on, as you listed in your post -- and I weren't the man I am -- I damn sure wouldn't have to love a woman to want to stay with her if she was making it possible for me to have all that.

He got a good two-year run out of you. Now he's back at his sister's, lining up his next mark, I'm sure. (I'd bet if you took all the lies together, they'd create a picture which would appeal to women of a certain, vulnerable type. From the lies you've mentioned, if I were a woman, I might conclude, without knowing your commentary, that this was a handsome and popular guy who women adored to the point of bailing him out of jail. He was just misunderstood and having a little run of bad luck. And I might be tempted to hook-up with him..to help him clean-up his rough edges, so to speak, and show him not ALL women were so misunderstanding as the one's he'd known before me.)

Apologies for dissing, but that's how I feel about it. Not as much a reflection on your judgment as an indictment of his dubious skills.

[Rosebud]

I couldn't agree with you more Hayward! And that's right on the money when you say "it's like I'm cleaning out all the residual vibes of the sad affair and putting new faces on things." I do I feel like I'm moving out the old and in with the new. I love change, I think it's healthy and I'm glad you enjoyed that Hayward!!

And as many times as I thought the same thing that Hayward just said in that post I could not have put that into words as greatly as he did. I think that is right on with this guy unfortunately!