America, the new Rome?

[Lloyd95]

Yeah but...it's for their own good. Because America would never do anything unethical...

Hold on Fras, I'm on your side here, but don't be hatin on America, just the current administration. I think Clinton had us on track there for awhile, and we were the same country/people.

[Junket]

The current administration is America.

Heh, we should work on our own "democracy" before we force it upon others.

Some people argue that America was in need of a strong leader.

Well a stronger leader equals a weaker democratic government.

Kinda defeats the whole purpose if you ask me.

[nomas]

So much so say...sometimes it doesn't pay to be offline on weekends..

A few things, if I can:

there are extremes on every issue, and there are all kinds of gray areas..no two people have the exact same view on things. Opinions are like assholes..everyone's got one, they all stink. The key is tolerance.

This is why I'm against these "liberations" or intrusions..on most anything. This is why I'm against organized religion, for the most part..especially when it's tied into government, where there can be an abuse of power to impose what they feel is right or wrong. To the scale of a war such as this, it makes it worse. It's going in there and saying "what you're doing is wrong and bad..what I bring is right and good" I say nobody has the right to say this. I can't go into a random house and impose my set of rules on to them. You can only control your own actions and values and rules upon YOURSELF. Every iteration after that gets more and more difficult. Your own family will rebel against some of your household rules and when they go to create their own households, they'll have their OWN set of rules. when you keep trying to extend your arm and wield your will on others, you're going to have some pissed off people who may fight back.

That's why people do fight back...it's a natural process. That's how many american countries got their independence: All of south america (minus Brazil), Mexico and the US. They all had war.

Summer made it pretty clear that the motives aren't always for "righteousness"..else why do we tend to go to places where we can clearly benefit from.

Now, of course, this war is high profile, and there are less well known humanitarian efforts that the US does parttake in. But there are also offensive efforts they parttake in too. People don't attack unprovoked. 9/11 was actually retaliation to bombings the US performed where innocents were killed. This was retaliation to probably some Embassy bombing, which was retaliation for..so on and so forth..

Again, thats why it's my stance not to stick your nose into business that's not your own. Help where you can..just humanitarian aid..but don't get into this back and forth battle.

Bottom line: You can't win. If you're the world superpower, you are expected to act and help. To help the opprossed, no less. When you do, there will be another side of the story who'll spin you off as invaders..

Maybe the answer is we're in too deep. Instability is at hand and maybe this is how one day this "empire" will fall inevitably.

[IKnowEverything]

It's obvious no one's minds will be changed here.

Frasbee - You've still never answered the main question asked to you. I think it's pretty clear now that you're just an angry liberal using the same far-left rhetoric spouted by your anti-american buddy, Michael Moore, and clowns like him. The forum see's you for who you are. You're identity has been unveiled.

Lloyd95- You completely ignored the link I provided. WMDs were found. Period. By the way, I sympathize for your losses.

BlueSummer- HAHAHHAAHAHAHAHA!!! I really don't know where to begin with you. You're such an anti-american pig! Wait, wait, wait....let me see....oh that's right! YOU'RE FROM ****ING CANADA! WOW, THAT WASN'T PREDICTABLE!!!
...and about the whole "wahhwahh we disobeyed the U.N. and went against their infallible leader Kofi Anan!" You need to seriously do some research and stop watching CNN if you think the U.N. is anything close to credible. HAhahaha!! Do the pussy U.N. weapon sanctions on Saddam ring a bell?

I'm going to quote you, BlueSummer, on something too: "U.S. staunchly refused to enter WWII because it had nothing to do with them, yet they were making incredible profits off the arms they were producing and selling to Europe. Chose to let millions of people die for SEVEN YEARS. Then Japan drops a couple of bombs on Hawaii and suddenly it becomes personal."

Millions of people for seven years? Check your facts. Where was Canada during all of this? Haha! Incredible profits off the arms we were selling? It was called the Lend-Lease program. When the war ended, we had lent out over $45 billion in supplies. The entire debt wasn't paid back until 1960. With absolutely no interest. So, the whole "incredible profit" argument can be completely thrown out.
...and yes, when a country ****ing bombs you it becomes pretty personal...

[Junket]

Sorry but I hate Moore.

Repeat this question you keep referring to.

You know what makes me American?

The fact that I don't give a shit what the libs or the cons think to create my own opinion. America wouldn't be America if there wasn't somethin' to argue about. America would be a much lesser democracy if we all shared the same opinion. So why don't you do me one favor, spare me the ****ing label would you?

"Anti-american" my ass.

[shh!]

Why are all the progressives turning on Michael Moore? Sure, his movies are biased, (and he never denies it, unlike conservative media figures who claim perfect objectivity), but they certainly made some good points. I could've lived without the dead soldier's crying Mom, which was a blatant emotional manipulation, but still, they offer food for thought. I liked Bowling for Columbine better than Fahrenheit 9/11...

Are you guys really trying to tell me I am the only poster on this forum who saw his movies?

[nomas]

Ike, you failed to address most of summer's best points:

"Ha ha ha ha" and "You're from ****ing Canada" are very unconvincing arguments. Keep your cool and post your arguments in an intelligent manner. It's your best weapon. That applies to all of us. When we start the stupid name-calling shit it's just a waste of genuinely interested and involved poster's time.

[Junket]

Are you guys really trying to tell me I am the only poster on this forum who saw his movies?

No I saw his movies.

And while I agree with him on some points I don't on others.

Especially when it comes to gun control and such.

Actually now that I think about it. Is he for or against gun control? Because he confused me as to what his stance was on that.

What I find silly about many people is that they're quick to label themselves republican or democrat, and adjust their views to fit that title. Which is rediculous.

When I'm presented with an issue I don't look to see what the liberals, conservatives, democrats, or republicans think.

I don't care what they think.

Is there any reason why I should? I'd like to see somebody argue otherwise.

All I need is my own logic and experience to choose my side of an issue.

[shh!]

Re: Bowling for Columbine, I don't think Michael Moore was attempting to argue HIS position on gun control (unlike his Fahrenheit 911 movie which he admits had an agenda), but rather was attempting to cast light on a very complex issue. That is probably why you couldn't determine his stance (although I suspect he would favor at least SOME level of gun control; I know I definitely do.)

I agree with your rant about Democrats/Republicans (and party loyalty) in general, which is why I am registered Independent. (I tend to be slightly conservative fiscally, and very liberal socially.) I think that the election of 2000 really polarized people; there seem to be far fewer moderates than there used to be.
:-(

[nomas]

I totally agree with the defining of ourselves as either rep or dem, and then toeing the company line. Listening to Fox news if you're republican and CNN if you're democrat..or as republicans claim, every other media outlet is liberal..even PUBLIC radio, which is why, now that republicans are in power, they've pulled the plug on PUBLIC radio funding..a large portion of it anyway. And most of talk radio is actually quite right wing oriented, though.

Anyway..wouldn't it be great if they did away with party affiliations? This way you couldn't just say I'm liberal or conservative and that's how I'm voting, but rather you'd have to learn about the candidate's view on certain issues?

[bluesummer]

Ike, you failed to address most of summer's best points:

"Ha ha ha ha" and "You're from ****ing Canada" are very unconvincing arguments. Keep your cool and post your arguments in an intelligent manner. It's your best weapon. That applies to all of us. When we start the stupid name-calling shit it's just a waste of genuinely interested and involved poster's time.

Thank you, nomas. My thoughts exactly.

Oh, and by the way, IKE, Canada was a part of WWII from the start. In case you forgot (or just plain didn't know), we were still part of the British Commonwealth then. We are still welll known and loved in Europe for our efforts during the war.....the WHOLE war, that is.

It's so typical to label someone who doesn't agree with Bush and his crap war 'Anti-American'. I'm not, I'm just anti-Bush, as is most of the educated world.

[IKnowEverything]

Thank you, nomas. My thoughts exactly.

Oh, and by the way, IKE, Canada was a part of WWII from the start. In case you forgot (or just plain didn't know), we were still part of the British Commonwealth then. We are still welll known and loved in Europe for our efforts during the war.....the WHOLE war, that is.

It's so typical to label someone who doesn't agree with Bush and his crap war 'Anti-American'. I'm not, I'm just anti-Bush, as is most of the educated world.

You're "educated" with garbage, it seems, based on the fallacies of your previous post. Nice job at ignoring my argument against you, by the way.

In the end, it doesn't matter if you were involved with the "whole war." The United States is the reason why we won the damn thing. Canadians entered the war because they were, as you've said, part of the British Commonwealth - they were essentially attacking your mother country. That was on September 10th, 1939. The U.S. came in two years later...when they attacked us (see the connection?).The only respect that we weren't involved with the war initially was the fact that we didn't have bodies on deployment in the European theater. That's it. We funded you guys fiscally, as well as materialistically.

As far as Canadians being exhaulted for their service in WWII, that is definitely something to be proud of. My grandfather (a B-52 bomber pilot) knew a few Canadians whom stormed the beaches of Normandy on D-Day. I am not refuting their service. However, it is essential for you to understand that if it weren't for the United States of America's involvement in WW2, all of Europe would be speaking German right now. Maybe us too.

[Junket]

I agree and disagree with you on that one IKE.

The reason why Germany lost is yes, largely in part of our intervening.

However, at the same time, if Germany had not tried fighting on so many fronts, like against Russia for instance it would have had a much better chance of taking western Europe. I would say Russia was their biggest mistake.

[bluesummer]

You're "educated" with garbage, it seems, based on the fallacies of your previous post. Nice job at ignoring my argument against you, by the way.

In the end, it doesn't matter if you were involved with the "whole war." The United States is the reason why we won the damn thing. Canadians entered the war because they were, as you've said, part of the British Commonwealth - they were essentially attacking your mother country. That was on September 10th, 1939. The U.S. came in two years later...when they attacked us (see the connection?).The only respect that we weren't involved with the war initially was the fact that we didn't have bodies on deployment in the European theater. That's it. We funded you guys fiscally, as well as materialistically.

As far as Canadians being exhaulted for their service in WWII, that is definitely something to be proud of. My grandfather (a B-52 bomber pilot) knew a few Canadians whom stormed the beaches of Normandy on D-Day. I am not refuting their service. However, it is essential for you to understand that if it weren't for the United States of America's involvement in WW2, all of Europe would be speaking German right now. Maybe us too.

I'm not saying the U.S. didn't help in the winning of the war. My point, to tie it back to the other posts, was that the war could've been won sooner and with less loss of life had America chosen to help when they were asked for help. That's all I was saying. America goes to war whenever it suits them.

I wasn't ignoring your argument, rather choosing to ignore your points that I was an anti american pig and uneducated. I don't get into bicker fests and hurl insults to prove my points. I could argue that your points are also based on uneducated garbage, but then that would be an OPINION, not fact, right? Just because I don't agree with you, it doesn't make you any more or less intelligent than me. So chill already.