flowers from a friend - help!!

[Prodigal]

The husband's reaction could be seen both ways. Maybe it didn't stress him out because he really DOESN'T care if you end up leaving him for some guy. At this point the chances don't seem as high of that as I first thought. The other reason could be that he trusts you so much that he knows he doesn't have to worry about it. If this is the case, then wow... he puts an incredible amount of trust in you.

However, he does seem to lack sentimentality.. which, once again, could be good or bad, whichever way you see it indigo. Giving up the trip without any sort of fight (although it was business and very important)... I wonder if he wishes to make up for it somehow?

Lack of emotionality, but unbounding trust in a relationship... that is very heavy weight on the scales. The question is, which one matters to you more? If this emotional, sentimental aspect is crucial to you, this may be a problem. If not, then it isn't.

[whaywardj]

OV -- Again, in classic nihilist tradition, you criticize everything and offer nothing. What is this impulse you seem to have to destroy?

[NeoSeminole]

I want to start off by saying your husband is the man. Any guy who is secure enough with himself to let his wife go f*ck another dude deserves props. Most guys would get jealous. There are swingers clubs for this type of stuff. I find it funny that everyone here is quick to sympathize with you, but no one here has stood up for the husband. There's always two sides to every story. You could be overreacting to his response. Maybe he trusts you enough to know you will make the right decision.

[indigosoul]

I want to start off by saying your husband is the man. Any guy who is secure enough with himself to let his wife go f*ck another dude deserves props. Most guys would get jealous. There are swingers clubs for this type of stuff. I find it funny that everyone here is quick to sympathize with you, but no one here has stood up for the husband. There's always two sides to every story. You could be overreacting to his response. Maybe he trusts you enough to know you will make the right decision.

Thanks Neo, for your post, it made me think. I considered this, but I rejected it when I mentally turned tables and wondered how I would feel if he asked me this about w/another woman. This isn't about simply f*cking another person for the experience, it's about emotional bonding. I think I might actually be okay if he asked me if it was okay for a purely sexual experience outside of the marriage. I wouldn't be okay if he told me it was one of our female friends, or a professional colleague, etc. b/c of the potential emotional attachment. I would wonder what I was/wasn't doing that would make him feel he needed this...

If you had read the other posts you would know that, in my case, the other person is NOT someone I am unconnected with. Its NOT cool to "be okay" with this (I think)!

FYI, he's not as OK w/it as he seems... he's just not being honest w/me, and worse, himself. This lack of communication is the whole problem we are having. Lack of good communication prevents true intimacy, which can lead to emotional isolation. This is the problem w/the machismo, "don't say sh!t if you've got a mouth full of it" strategy.

And YES, I have told him ALL of this. As someone already said "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink". I'm stuffing the bottle down his throat at the moment and venting here, is all. Ultimately, tho, its his decision to drink if he wants. Its mine to decide how long I want to force things, as has already been said.

[indigosoul]

he trusts you so much that he knows he doesn't have to worry about it. If this is the case, then wow... he puts an incredible amount of trust in you.

Lack of emotionality, but unbounding trust in a relationship... that is very heavy weight on the scales.

Thanks Robert, ya know, there's quite a bit of pysch in here tho. (I'm feeling nasty today, bear w/me)

Historically the honour/trust thing has worked for many great leaders... inspiring officers who were sooo persuasive they could get their solders to fall on their swords, charge the enemy under hopeless conditions, etc. This is amazing pyschology when you think of it.

Now imagine a manipulative relationship. If you KNOW someone has a "thing" about trust, honour, and all that... then the best way to get them to do that thing is to "tell" them that you believe in them that way, right? The poor souls can't wait to fall on their swords....

Point is, the "poor soul" should get something for their effort, right? Even the dead soldier felt that he was protecting his family/country, etc... I'm not sure yet what I'm getting for my effort... Damn, I'm feeling cynical today.

[Prodigal]

Indigo,

I have read this last post several times, and have let it kinda culminate in my mind.

I think you're beginning to answer your own question. You related your relationship with your husband with trust, and basically, that his trust in you in this situation is what he knows is best for his own good (which is, you staying in the relationship). Since he knows that you put a huge emphasis on trust, he feels that by putting trust in you, it will convince you to stay with him. (Although you do say you feel it is an act and the trust isn't real, as said in response to Neo. This is why you see it as manipulative, I suppose.)

Your analogies point to the 'poor souls' symbolizing you. Your husband's manipulation by feigning trust is trying to convince you to 'fall on your sword' or 'charge under hopeless conditions'... which I can only imagine to be as staying in the relationship.

"The poor souls can't wait to fall on their swords" infers that this manipulation compels you to stay in the relationship (which you attribute to 'falling on the sword', or in other words, suicide of the soul), because if you DON'T 'fall on the sword', you would feel as if you are sacrificing what is so dear to you: your values of trust &c, mentioned in your first post where you go into detail about not wanting to leave the relationship because of your beliefs of marraige and children being an irrevocable agreement or pact of sorts.

I think this business trip is really necessary... to hopefully talk to your friend and try to ascertain the true status of your relationship with him: if he is just a family friend or truly wishes to become something more. I can't say that this poor soul's suffering will end soon.. but what I do know is that the soul has endured much. Maybe the reward comes with more inner strength. Or maybe, it will be more tangible. I suppose the new question is whether you will follow the inspiring officer's orders and 'fall on the sword', as you call it... or will you refuse to?

Best regards.
-Robert

[mini696]

I agree with whaywardj.

I would suggest the attraction for your friend stems from the lack of affection your husband is giving you. Your friend is saying the things you want to hear from your husband. He (your friend) knows this, and is probably playing you.

Mick

PS Tell you husband everything you said here. Or at least a similar version. He deserves to know so he can make his own decision on the relationship.

*Mick discovers he didn't read 4 pages of this topic before posting... DOH!!*

[mini696]

I'm surprised noone has mentioned anything about my friend. Doesn't anyone feel bad for him in all this? I certainly do. I mean, I don't even really know for sure he has feelings for me other than friendship. So, yes, there has been long phone calls, and emails, and flirts & flowers... but COULD I be reading him wrong?!

He's using a bad situation to his advantage. Whether its deliberate of not only he'll know.

Could you be wrong reading him? Well if this is what you think... "I mean, I don't even really know for sure he has feelings for me other than friendship." Then you are wrong... He does have feeling for you. I would bet my life on it.

Mick

[indigosoul]

He's using a bad situation to his advantage. Whether its deliberate of not only he'll know.

Could you be wrong reading him? Well if this is what you think... "I mean, I don't even really know for sure he has feelings for me other than friendship." Then you are wrong... He does have feeling for you. I would bet my life on it.

Mick

Uhhh, so which is it? Player or something more? And what makes you think this? Maybe I'm too close to the problem, but I can't see where you're coming from w/this.

FYI, I have a hard time believing my friend could sacrifice a 15 year friendship just to "play". There are lots of girls out there to be had for that (and he has no problem this way). It doesn't make sense, and he's not at all stupid like that. He'd be losing TWO very good friendships (mine & my husbands).

So, here's my next question: How do I tell him nicely that although I care deeply about him, i really need to be "left alone" by him to work out stuff w/my husband? That even if his intentions are innocent, my confused feelings make this necessary, I think. Will he accept this, you think? Is it reasonable for me to be confused enough to need this? If he IS innocent, I don't want him thinking badly of me that I thought this of HIM... one could argue HIS messages have been pretty damn ambiguous...

Arrrrgh!! Thanks gang, this is all coming to a head... I'll stop posting about this soon...

[Asip4u]

Indi,

A husband who isn't emotionally attached to his wife doesn't mind if she sleeps with someone else, especially if he can get pleasure out of it as well. Not all guys will admit this, but you can bet that's it there. It comes down to how you feel about the whole thing. You've taken this situation and have done a good job in seeing your options, so full credit to you for that. What you want is important. I know that if i'm in a situation where it's for the wrong reasons and it isn't me, i have to change it.

[mini696]

I've had experience with "the friend" before. Maybe my opinion is biased because of this.

Also I was a bit hasty in replying I didn't realise there was 5 pages when I replied.

This guy I know from school had the hots for my current GF. She knows it, and did use him to get back at her (now ex) BF. So this guy, knowing full well that nothing would ever happen still "chase" my GF. I have been promised nothing will happen, so I believe her and am OK with their friendship. *Now I type this I think your situatio is a lot different*

Try again - I dont believe men can be just friends with women (at least not all women)... No matter how long, or how good your friendship is, I just believe that men will always have it (sex) in the backof their mind. Saying that... I believe the way you tell is by their actions. If I am interested in a friend, I will be a lot closer to them than a friend I am not interested in. I will also buy them things, and when I buy things to make them happy, its usually a sign that I care a little bit more for then than only friends.

I think it is inappropriate that he bought you the flowers.

The more I think of this the more biased I think my opinion was. Maybe he can be just your friend. Maybe the flowers were only to help make you smile. I dont know.

I think whaywardj is the one with the good opinions here.

Mick

[indigosoul]

Try again - I dont believe men can be just friends with women (at least not all women)... No matter how long, or how good your friendship is, I just believe that men will always have it (sex) in the backof their mind. Saying that... I believe the way you tell is by their actions. If I am interested in a friend, I will be a lot closer to them than a friend I am not interested in. I will also buy them things, and when I buy things to make them happy, its usually a sign that I care a little bit more for then than only friends.

I think it is inappropriate that he bought you the flowers.

The more I think of this the more biased I think my opinion was. Maybe he can be just your friend. Maybe the flowers were only to help make you smile. I dont know.

I think whaywardj is the one with the good opinions here.

Whayward already told me he is skeptical of my friends intentions. I guess I should be too. Dammit, am I being naive thinking that I can ever get to the core of what EITHER one is thinking?! Husband OR friend....? Is this just a male thing to not be able to say what one is really thinking?! At this point (for my husband) it seems like such a zero-sum thing to me... my friend is relatively clueless I think, so at least he's got an excuse (until I ask him for his explanation).

I am getting to the point where I'm thinking I don't want ANYONE who can't be honest w/me...

[NeoSeminole]

I would be really interested to hear your husband's side of the story. Maybe you could talk him into posting here.

[indigosoul]

I would be really interested to hear your husband's side of the story. Maybe you could talk him into posting here.

That would never happen. Seriously. If he even knew I was posting our problems like this he would FREAK. Intellectual understanding that its an anonymous forum aside, he just would NEVER. He doesn't even want to talk to a counsellor about our stuff. Basically going b/c I've asked him to. Says that they can't think up anything he can't already... Probably even true, what he says. Of course, problem is DOING, not thinking...

Myself, I have no pride left at all w/any of this. I used to think ppl were stupid for venting their problems... tho, personally, I could never do the Jerry Springer thing, where ppl actually KNEW who you were... whole different ballgame, that. At this point I will do almost ANYTHING that helps us get back on track.

I'm basically just venting here. Tho the advice I've gotten has really made me think. The collective experience of those here is really quite amazing.

[mini696]

Counselling will only work if BOTH people want to be ther and make it happen. I understand why it hasn't helped much when you say your husband is "going b/c I've asked him to".

am I being naive thinking that I can ever get to the core of what EITHER one is thinking?

Yes. To a certain extent. Personally I dont ever know exactly how I feel, and it changes slightly every day.

Is this just a male thing to not be able to say what one is really thinking?

No. Its a female thing too. Just depends on the individual.

I'm thinking I don't want ANYONE who can't be honest w/me...

Thats the spirit. I am a strong believer in speaking the truth. Sometimes I need a day (maybe longer) to know how I feel. I tell my GF this, and she knows if she asks me how I feel, I will say the first thing I think of, then come back to her later when I know exactly what I want. If you dont know the truth you cant make a decision on any circumstance.

I would much rather know something horrible thats the truth, than constantly be pondering over 10 different things wondering which one it is (I always seem to pick the worst in that case).


*I wish I had all the answers.
*I wish you all the luck in the world.
*I wish that your child may understand.
*I wish you happiness.

Mick