Longing to be loved 2

[pcmaster]

Just a little update: Couldn't sleep at peace after yesterday realized how blind and selfish I was. So slept only a few hours cause my consciousness was not clean. Realized how much I might have done and how little I did. And realized how much girl have done without really doing anything just by giving me chance after chance. Can't explain this, why did she do all this for me - only except if she had feelings too, only if she saw me try.

This moorning remembered an old song and now I understand this song better than ever before cause now I saw myself and her in this song - EXO Miracles in December -

I try to find you, who I can’t see
I try to hear you, who I can’t hear
Then I started to see things I couldn’t see
Hear things I couldn’t hear

The selfish me, who always knew only myself, yeah
The heartless me, who didn’t even know your heart
Even I can’t believe
that I changed like this
Your love keeps moving me

I stop time and go back to you
I open your page in my book of memories, oh~
I am there inside

I am with you

A very small and weak person, your love
Has changed (all of my life),
everything (all of the world)

[Hooo!]

When communicating needs you also need to not ask too much
Woman like it if the man takes initiative and leads
Not all of them to the same extend and not at all times

However the typical respect of letting other guys decide can be interpreted as indecisive or even unmanly by women
Generally speaking

- - - Updated - - -

€€
Then thank her with a nice gesture
But don’t come of too sorry or too emotional

Appreciate it and give her a treat

[TheEvilJester]

It is great if you are seeing mistakes you may have made, things you may have misunderstood. Sure, maybe you could be unintentionally contributing to why she seems to have been losing interest. So, it is definitely great if you want to try to improve on those things. As I've said before, it is a little hard for me to really know since I am not close enough to the situation. Maybe if I were you, or I were her, or I were a fly on the wall to witness you two together I would know better. So, sure, there definitely could be things you need to do better and ways you contributed to her seeming to start to become less interested....

But again, still don't lose sight of the fact that she could also be part of the problem. Again, you shouldn't have to earn her attention/affection. She is not some prize you should have to win. Again, don't misunderstand. I do NOT mean to imply that she should just have to take you as you are. I DO think it is good to realize when you may have flaws/areas for improvement in yourself. And I do agree that you should work on those, both for her as well as for yourself. I'm just saying, that doesn't necessarily excuse some of the behavior from her you've described. She already "chose" you, so to speak, by agreeing to date you. So, she needs to either actually give you that chance or let you go if she has no intention of really taking it seriously.

Anyway, again, I say all this only because I do not want to see you get hurt. I am merely a concerned friend on the outside of the situation. To be perfectly honest, there is nothing wrong with you deciding you just want to enjoy this for whatever it is for right now. It's just, the biggest possible concern is if you were to get too deep, fall to deeply for her... only to get hurt for it. If nothing else, I think that is mainly the theme of my advice. If you are looking for something more serious and she does not seem to be willing to move in that direction, then eventually it may be better for you if you just move on. If you are fine with just taking it casually and you aren't falling too hard for her (and you could end things if you eventually felt that had to be the way) then no harm in just enjoying it for now. In time, maybe it even will become more serious.

All that said, my wish for you would still be that you don't even have to find out. That this relationship gets better and better and in time these issues are very much a thing of the past. As always, I will wish you the best of luck.

[pcmaster]

Thanks for your concerns, Jester. I understand that you don't want me to make your mistakes. Especially because now it might look a bit like your situation when you suffered from a girl. But I don't suffer. This is still better than what my life was before meeting her. Initial euphoria has gone and now there's this warm steady feeling.

But I don't think it's possible to get much deeper than this. I can't imagine what if the time comes when we can't meet anymore. And don't wanna think about it. But I know while we are together I'm gonna make most of this time. I'm still pretty selfish, talking about myself a lot, especially today via chat. But I do care for her too a lot. I want to remember this and think that I have done everything that I could imagine for her. Cause I know the feeling when there's something I could easily do but didn't do. - Just regret and thinking what if, if things would be different if that or this was done.

I think God is giving me everything I'm ready for. Sometimes I pray God for us, sometimes just for myself and sometimes for her.

P.S. Tonite we spend few hours in church. It was nice. The priest mentioned something about spending the night in the church, super cool it sounded.

[TheEvilJester]

Well, no, this has absolutely nothing to do with me not wanting you to make my mistakes. Yes, I had a relationship that turned out to be very wrong for me, but not really in the same ways you are describing with your gal. It is more so just that I don't want to see you get hurt, taken advantage of, and/or unappreciated.

You are right to some degree that if it doesn't bother you then it isn't too big a deal FOR NOW. So, again, if it is working for you for now, that is great. It's just, again, the way you describe how she has treated you lately is not okay for a lasting relationship. So, unless that changes and things DO progress, I sincerely hope you care about yourself enough to realize you need more. But, yeah... that doesn't have to be a decision you need even worry about right now. It's still early in the relationship. No harm enjoying it for now, using it as an experience to learn and grow, and just see where things go. Nothing would make me happier for you than for my concerns to wind up being for nothing.

On a side note, I haven't been privy to your conversations, so I don't know the full extent and content. However, talking about yourself is not necessarily selfish. If you only talk about yourself and don't let the other person talk about themselves, maybe... So, if you do feel you have a problem with talking about yourself TOO MUCH and not giving the other person their chance too, then that could be something worth working on for sure. But, talking about yourself in and of itself is not automatically selfish. How else is somebody supposed to get to know you?

[pcmaster]

It is more so just that I don't want to see you get hurt, taken advantage of, and/or unappreciated.

Thanks for your concerns, my friend.

You are right to some degree that if it doesn't bother you then it isn't too big a deal FOR NOW.

But that's all I have - this moment - NOW. I made a mistake after the first date - cause on a first date I had a mindset to do everything I can to enjoy the date in case the first date is the last one. There was almost no chance in my eyes that girl like this would want more than one date with me. And I was still unsure of first 3 dates, that's why didn't made any future plans. But think it was a mistake to get comfortable and stop trying so hard as I did on the first date. Cause man life is short and there are only that much chances given and often there's no second chance to do things again, it always stays how you made it in the first time.

So, again, if it is working for you, for now, that is great. It's just, again, the way you describe how she has treated you lately is not okay for a lasting relationship.

I would like to think that this will last too but I don't dare to believe that there's much time left. Always with girls, I have been thinking that there's more time. Few more weeks or few more months that I been hoping for. Just to find out that there were only days left. Yeah back in the day I wanted her to treat me better but I already have forgiven her and saw how I caused her to be the certain way towards me. Sure there were better ways how to handle that but we all just humans, nobody's perfect.

So, unless that changes and things DO progress, I sincerely hope you care about yourself enough to realize you need more.

I don't think that I could handle more right now. Actually liking how it is right now and like mentioned before - think that God is giving me everything I can handle right now.

But, yeah... that doesn't have to be a decision you need even worry about right now. It's still early in the relationship. No harm enjoying it, for now, using it as an experience to learn and grow, and just see where things go. Nothing would make me happier for you than for my concerns to wind up being for nothing.

That's exactly what it was for me - experience to learn and grow. Also, I'm very interested to see where things go with her and without her. Her presence in my life been very motivating. So that these days I have dreams and goals in my mind right after waking up. What wasn't the case before meeting her. I'm very interested and hopeful to keep this higher level of being, to keep working on dreams and goals no matter what happens with us in future.

On a side note, I haven't been privy to your conversations, so I don't know the full extent and content. However, talking about yourself is not necessarily selfish. If you only talk about yourself and don't let the other person talk about themselves, maybe... So, if you do feel you have a problem with talking about yourself TOO MUCH and not giving the other person their chance too, then that could be something worth working on for sure. But, talking about yourself in and of itself is not automatically selfish. How else is somebody supposed to get to know you?

It's been hard for me to talk about myself in the past cause I didn't love myself. So I was very reserved and closed when talking. That starting to change during last years. But there's also a certain amount of self-centered, blind, selfish, egotistical ego involved when a person only talks about itself. So still searching for balance here. Sometimes it's better to keep quiet but as you hinted - sometimes its better to say something about yourself.

P.S. Just realized that been talking mostly about myself, but this topic is also about girls I date.
So yesterday girl looked very beautiful and smelled real nice too. Don't remember when she smelled better than this. It seemed like this was best she ever smelled. She talked with me openly, patiently and felt like equal with her. What was unussual she was humble too. At the end when saying goodbyes gave her a kiss and she didn't resist. Her lips was perfect. So soft and perfectly moist. If could change anything about how she is from outside - wouldn't change anything. An ideally beautiful girl.

[TheEvilJester]

Absolutely nothing wrong with living for the moment in many cases. This may be one of those cases for now. For now, it sounds like you are happy with things where they are, so I am happy for you. I do think the way you described it in your most recent post does make me feel a little better for you. Which is that you feel you are maybe not ready for more than this right now anyway. That perhaps you couldn't handle it. And, that I can sort of more understand. It's almost like this is both a serious relationship for you... but at the same time also kind of a practice relationship.

With time I am sure you WILL feel ready for more, will feel you can handle it, and then maybe this particular relationship will even BE that "more" itself... or maybe not. But, that's a question for future pcmaster. For now, it sounds like you are good with where you are now, and that this is really helping you to grow as a person. That is good, and I am happy for you.

I know what you mean, too, about the balance between not talking about yourself enough and talking about yourself too much. I know, too, how you feel about worrying it makes you seem selfish. In the past, I've always had such a non-existent self-esteem that I felt selfish if I talked about myself pretty much at all. LOL! Essentially, in my mind I guess I figured who the Hell cares about me, so why would I talk about me? But, I knew that's just how relationships of any kind work (be they romantic or even just friendships with men or women). So, I did anyway, but it felt sort of strange too me at first.

I think it is the sort of thing you get more comfortable with in time. You learn a good balance between talking about yourself and letting the other person also have their turn. It is a delicate balance, so I'm not sure I can specifically point out how you can tell if you lean too much to either side. But, you'll get there.

[pcmaster]

My love life has been pretty quiet lately.

So whats happening with you Jester? What have you been up to during all this time? Any new thoughts or girls in your life? You always like to philosophy about things.

[TheEvilJester]

I do like to philosophize, indeed. Honestly, no new developments. Not in a good way or a bad way. It kind of just is. Nothing has really changed since we last talked about my situation. I still remain sort of settled with the conclusion that it is unlikely to happen for me. I still remain in the mindset that I've accepted that... and I still remain in the mindset that I guess I could best describe as "Meh!" As in, I just don't see any reason to even bother. ...But, it's not in a bad way. It's not like my indifference I've had in my worst of times when I was simply too miserable to believe I could ever find love. I still remain happy. I still remain very happy, like I've never experienced before.

These days I sort of feel about it the way some people maybe feel about cake. It would be awesome if I could have a piece of cake... but I'm not going to go to all kinds of crazy effort to get cake. I can live without cake. If cake happened to be available, I'd maybe have a piece, but otherwise I can go about my life a happy man even without.

[pcmaster]

Well man its not exactly a cake. A lot of people describe it like that but in fact finding someone with who you are happy is more like main course. Cake is more like short term satisfaction like dopamine high that affects few nerve centers in brain. When main course is like serotonin that affects most brain centers. When you are happy serotnin(it dont cause addiction) gets released but during high its the dopamine(its addictive) that does its job.

Not saying you should do crazy stuff to find a girlfriend. But slowly going that way could work.

Sure you can be happy right now but as older you get as more company you will want cause many things you do alone now you might not be able or want to do alone. But if you live alone you die alone.
It reminds me that quote - No one at death bed asks "Bring me my diplomas and bank statemends" People want to see close people near them when they are close to dying. Its the relationships and love that are appreciated in foreverness.

I, perhaps, never have created relationship so strong that someone would be there for me when Im close to death. And I been close to death in my younger days, just to find out that no one cares. And I might never be able to make such a relationship with someone that Im not alone when it matters the most. But I know that I will never stop trying till the end of my days if I have to.

[PRW]

Judging from the original post I am confident that any dating situation will go off the rails into a trainwreck. The OP needs to get his life, his mind, and his emotions in order first. Dating a woman will not "fix" anyone,...it will only expose the flaws and weaknesses. I'll list below how I think the early dating process should go. This covers the period from the first date to becoming exclusive. It does not cover the relationship period that comes after that. It is most certainly rigid and intended to keep guys who struggle with dating from creating a mess. For those who will "cherry pick" details from it in order to create "straw man" arguments against it,...I will just ignore you, this isn't the first time I have posted this concept and it won't be the last.

Phase One – a few weeks to a month long

1. Guy offers a girl a specific date once a week and sets the date for a week away. You are making her an offer, present it that way like you know what you are doing. Plan it out ahead of time so you already know what you are offering. A good pattern is ask on Monday or Tues for a weekend date. No “fuzzy” dates! She needs a specific time/day/place. If you hit a day she can’t do it and she actually wants to spend time with you she will give you a counter offer or at least let you know in some way that it is ok to try again later. If she does neither of those then she probably isn’t into you. A compromise option would be to ask her when she is free to get together then offer a specific time/day/place.

2. No chit-chatting, texting/calling between setting the date and arriving on the date. This is important to build anticipation for the date so both parties are excited to see each other when they arrive. It demonstrates integrity of both parties when they actually show up for the date without needing to be reassuring each other leading up to it. It eliminates either party from saying something stupid in a text or phone call to weaken the other’s attraction to them before they even make it to the date or maybe causing the date to be canceled or at minimum cause the other to be half-hearted about it. It is needy, insecure, and impatient people on both sides that think they need to chit-chat leading up to the date or the other one might forget about them and not show up.

3. No expensive dates, no exuberant dates, no long trips, no weekend trips, no vacation trips, no meeting family/friends. Guy pays for the date. Get over it. Maybe the woman can pick up the tip if she wants. Guys, keep it happy, fun, and light hearted. No heavy subjects. Guys, what a woman remembers about a date are different than you remember. She remembers how you made her feel. So make sure she always thinks of happy feelings and fun when she thinks of you.

4. Do not bring up any labels what-so-ever, such as boyfriend, girlfriend, relationship, marriage, love, or anything else along those lines. At this point you are not her boyfriend and she is not your girlfriend. That is her job to bring that stuff up when she is ready,…not your job, you suck at it, so forget it. You both still need to understand that you have the freedom to see other people at the same time, even if you don’t choose to act on it,…it is a frame of mind you both need to have.

5. Rinse and repeat, over and over each week or so, but not more than once a week at this early point. Show some discipline and that you aren’t still in high school.

Phase Two – a few more weeks long to a couple months

1. After a few weeks if you haven’t made mistakes the woman will start to contact you in between the dates. Be smart enough to know that this is your cue to set the next date. This shifts some of the power over to the woman. Before the guy did all the chasing and setting the date. But now the dates happen each time the woman contacts you which gives her control of the frequency. You are both now sharing in the process. This means to an extent that the dates are her idea and it also means that you may now potentially see each other more than once a week. But don’t get carried away, still show some discipline. The rest of this phase is about the same as Phase One.

2. Minimal chit-chatting, texting/calling between setting the date and arriving on the date.

3. No expensive dates, no exuberant dates, no long trips, no weekend trips, no vacation trips, no meeting family/friends. Guy pays for the date. Get over it. Maybe the woman can pick up the tip if she wants. Guys, keep it happy, fun, and light hearted. No heavy subjects. Guys, what a woman remembers about a date are different than you remember. She remembers how you made her feel. So make sure she always thinks of happy feelings and fun when she thinks of you.

4. Do not bring up any labels what-so-ever, such as boyfriend, girlfriend, relationship, marriage, love, or anything else along those lines. At this point you are not her boyfriend and she is not your girlfriend. That is her job to bring that stuff up when she is ready,…not your job, you suck at it, so forget it. You both still need to understand that you have the freedom to see other people at the same time, even if you don’t choose to act on it,…it is a frame of mind you both need to have.

Phase 3 – Lasts until you breakup, co-habitate, get married, or she runs over you with the car

If you haven’t made a bunch of mistakes and screwed things up yet, at around 7-8 weeks (maybe longer if you made mistakes) the woman may bring up the exclusivity conversation. She may be vague and coy about it, so you might have to pick her brain a little to be sure if that is what she is saying she wants. If that is what she wants, and if you agree to it then you are now finally boyfriend/girlfriend and will need to drop off any others that you both may be seeing.

[pcmaster]

Your date plan is safe and indeed might end up lasting 2 months or longer. But its also slow and boring. I get much further progress with girls on the third date than you described in 2 months. Also some people like chatting, others don't. One dont works for everyone. If you like it and it works for you - great. But don't say its the right way for everyone.

Now if you don't care to read much more than my first post then get away from my topic, don't spam your guides in here. I don't appreciate spammers on my topic.

[PRW]

Now if you don't care to read much more than my first post then get away from my topic, don't spam your guides in here. I don't appreciate spammers on my topic.

I read more than the first one,...I only pointed to my thoughts about the first one.

Not a SPAMMER. Not selling you anything. I just carefully organized my response and put a lot of thought into it,...that doesn't make it SPAM. You don't want to follow it, you don't have to. But you did ask, and that post is my answer.

[pcmaster]

Sorry [MENTION=87416]PRW[/MENTION] for thinking you are spammer. Must be my paranoia getting stronger. Spring hormones kicking in too. Not used that someone random posts without my invitation in my topic.

Actually, I been thinking about it and your dating strategy is pretty good and suited for someone older, not chat dependant and not needy, with little free time. That could be me pretty soon down the road. Since going in that direction last years.

Also its pretty safe since you going at girls pace. Guys tend to rush things but girls go slow and steady. Its just you didnt mention physical escalation and didnt explain relationship phase. I been dating for quite a while and when it works it ussualy lasts about 2 months with girls. Thats including a lot of chatting between and before and after 3-4 dates.

Also your tactic is with US based mindset about being exclusive. Cause here girls are mostly old school and if dating continues after first date then thats ussualy exclusive without mentioning. I had a case when girl wanted me to date her exclusively after first date. So thats how its goes here. Not being exclusive here could apply when there are few week gap between dates and/or things are in shit. Then some girls could date other guys in between.

Agree about rule of thumb about no expensive dates. Thats a good rule for beginner, especially having classic dates in the mind. But for me its not just about cost but more about being time effective and progression. Classic dates wont bring much emotional and physical intimatcy, but even that can be tweaked during a date, with some tricks and knowledge. Still I think creatives dates are the best. having dinner with champagne on the beach - pretty banal and expensive. But driving to go for a swim at 4 am at night - sounds cool to me. Also movie night with watching movies on projected screen outside in backyard with blankets. Thats already bit different than netfix and chill.

Basically 5 factors that are important on dates is:

Emotional intimacy potencial
Physical intimacy potencial
Conversation ease
Cost effectivness
Brag worthyness

P.S. Been listening to this song lately. Like how peacful and slow it is. Also lyrics are good.

[TheEvilJester]

Well man its not exactly a cake. A lot of people describe it like that but in fact finding someone with who you are happy is more like main course. Cake is more like short term satisfaction like dopamine high that affects few nerve centers in brain. When main course is like serotonin that affects most brain centers. When you are happy serotnin(it dont cause addiction) gets released but during high its the dopamine(its addictive) that does its job.

Not saying you should do crazy stuff to find a girlfriend. But slowly going that way could work.

Sure you can be happy right now but as older you get as more company you will want cause many things you do alone now you might not be able or want to do alone. But if you live alone you die alone.
It reminds me that quote - No one at death bed asks "Bring me my diplomas and bank statemends" People want to see close people near them when they are close to dying. Its the relationships and love that are appreciated in foreverness.

I, perhaps, never have created relationship so strong that someone would be there for me when Im close to death. And I been close to death in my younger days, just to find out that no one cares. And I might never be able to make such a relationship with someone that Im not alone when it matters the most. But I know that I will never stop trying till the end of my days if I have to.

Well, I readily admit it isn't like I know how I will feel when that time (mercifully) comes. You can't really know until you've been faced with it. ...But I've honestly accepted the fact that I will most likely die alone. I mean, if any of my family is still around by the time I go I'm sure they will be there for me to a degree. But, I won't have that one special somebody who will be there with me to the end. I mean, heck, life could see fit to prove me wrong... but I've basically come to accept that is probably my fate.

And, that actually doesn't bother me anymore. I mean, don't get me wrong. It isn't like I'm HAPPY about that. It just no longer bothers me. I still think about that now and then... and funny enough it brings me a smile. Again, not because the thought makes me happy. It makes me happy INDIRECTLY. What makes me happy is the realization that this thought no longer has power over me. My honest, gut reaction is basically "Eh. It is what it is. No biggie."


[MENTION=87416]PRW[/MENTION],

I will preface this to say that no particular plan is 100% perfect for everybody. Any relationship will generally need to involve some feeling it out a bit between the two for what seems to work for them/their relationship.....

However...

Your plan is amazing. I mean, that is awesome! Thank you for that. That really does sound like an amazing plan for somebody like myself who doesn't really know how to date. It's so alien to me. I don't know what is expected, so I freak myself out too much about when should you do this and that, how do you know if the gal is really that into you, how you do you make sure to make it obvious you are into her but don't make it seem like you are TOO into her too fast, etc?

Your plan is great! It lays out the perfect amount of constraint while still showing obvious interest to the gal. It also allows some freedom to let her dictate the pace to some degree so you are able to react to her time frame rather than just trying to force your own and either being too fast or too slow.

Seriously, this is great. Thank you for this.