Why should everyone assume they're worthy of "confidence"?

[YoungCosmo]

Doesn't everything in life come down to the bottom line? So with this logic in mind, I am thinking that if a guy has poor history with girls that he shouldn't be anything but lacking in self-esteem: After all, based on the stats the fact points to someone who shouldn't feel good about himself because his history says he's sucked in the past and he'll suck in the future.

So I am wondering why "Get some confidence" is always used as advice. If he's not attractive to girls, why should he have confidence? What's there to be confident IN? If a guy is confident without any reason to then he should be thought of as arrogant, no?

It just seems like an unattractive guy's options are to fail but be humble or fail with arrogance. Cuz being nice, always listening and fun are the very basic things a girl deserves in a guy so if he's not physically attractive on top of those, isn't he just a genetic failure? And doesn't genetically failing equate to losing at life?

[michelle23]

You are attractive yc. There is nothing physically wrong with you. You don't have the confidence to be yourself around women so they don't see your real personality or good qualities. You need to accept and like who you are first before others will like you

[TablesandChairs]

You have to bring something to the table; it doesn't necessarily have to be looks. It can be good humour, intelligence or just having the capacity to be a good partner...if you're unattractive, an asshole, treat women like crap, have no sense of humour and a pessimistic outlook, then yeah, you're out of luck. I had an ex who wasn't much to look at but he had this ability to be uplifting and to motivate and it made him very attractive. He never had trouble getting women and he wasn't tall, nor particularly well-built...just average looks that grew on you the more you got to know him.

So, I'm not sure where you're coming from...I mean, it's obvious - if there's nothing good about a person, then people won't be drawn to them.

[YoungCosmo]

You are attractive yc. There is nothing physically wrong with you. You don't have the confidence to be yourself around women so they don't see your real personality or good qualities. You need to accept and like who you are first before others will like you

Thanks, michelle.

- - - Updated - - -

You have to bring something to the table; it doesn't necessarily have to be looks. It can be good humour, intelligence or just having the capacity to be a good partner...if you're unattractive, an asshole, treat women like crap, have no sense of humour and a pessimistic outlook, then yeah, you're out of luck. I had an ex who wasn't much to look at but he had this ability to be uplifting and to motivate and it made him very attractive. He never had trouble getting women and he wasn't tall, nor particularly well-built...just average looks that grew on you the more you got to know him.

So, I'm not sure where you're coming from...I mean, it's obvious - if there's nothing good about a person, then people won't be drawn to them.

Well I might have been too drunk last night to articulate my points so I'll try to clarify:

Of course I agree with you especially when you said "if you're unattractive, an asshole, treat women like crap, have no sense of humour and a pessimistic outlook, then yeah, you're out of luck." I can't speak about myself regarding the first trait. I know I'm not an asshole or treat women like crap although I do lack a serious sense of humor (but not when out with the guys).

My main thought that inspired this thread was why is it necessary that everyone should feel confident? Confidence almost seems to imply superiority and if a person isn't superior in personality or looks, then confidence seems like an illusion, like insecurity issues. Shouldn't confidence only be reserved for the pretty or the handsome? I was raised to be humble so I always assume I have no reason to be confident in anything I do because it's not great, that there are billions of others who are better. Shouldn't this same principle apply for similarly humble (genetically speaking) guys?

It seems like good traits are mandatory for every person. Not every person has them but if a humble looking guy is counting good traits compensating for lack of looks, isn't he far too inadequate for love?

I'm thinking less of my own baffling incompetency with girls and more about the general trends of dating so this thread isn't really as much about my problems. Just been thinking of "confidence" and "attractiveness" in meritorious terms. Who's earned the right to be confident? Who shouldn't feel confident?

[Wakeup]

Cosmo: Do you seriously think that Woody Allen is attractive. He's one of the ugliest dudes I can think of yet he has charisma and has zero problems getting women... even if they are his adopted daughter .. lol

Charisma is more then physical appearance.

[YoungCosmo]

You just said he has charisma. So yes, I would say he's attractive. I mean, I'm not at the age where I think attractive is strictly or mostly physical.

Now, charisma does seem kind of innate. You can't teach it. No matter how hard a person who is uncharismatic tries, they aren't going to learn it, are they? It ties into my argument because it's not a guy's fault if he's uncharismatic. And so if he has all those mandatory qualities but lacks humor or charisma AND being physically attractive, I guess he's just kind of ****ed over, isn't he? So why should this guy have confidence?

[basilandthyme]

I strongly echo Table and Chair's sentiments. It's about finding confidence in some part of your life.

Look at the guys in The Big Bang Theory for example. Total nerds....but confident in their academic and nerdy abilities. No, they aren't going to catch a brainless bimbo, but a girl who is also intellectual or a gamer or into cosplay will appreciate them.

[TablesandChairs]

You know that show, The Apprentice? There's one thing those participants have in common: confidence. They glorify every single achievement and act like they are absolute experts - unbreakable, unflinching...amazing. It's intimidating, I mean - they must be brilliant.

And then you watch the show and realise they're not...I can come up with better ideas and strategies in my sleep. They get flustered, crumble under pressure and have very limited creativity or ability to think outside the box. They even struggle to come up with anything good when there's 10 on them - 10 brilliant, amazing people! It should be easy.

Anyway, point is - you give others too much credit whilst simultaneously robbing yourself of credit. In a job interview, are you going to say 'Oh well...I'm good at what I do but there are others better than me..'.

I'm not saying people should be arrogant turds like the clowns on The Apprentice...but there's nothing wrong with honing in on the aspects of yourself that are good or even great. Having confidence doesn't mean you have to be the absolute, measurable best as listed on the Guinness Book of Records. But you don't always have to go around eating humble pie.

[Wakeup]

You can learn how to be charismatic. You NEED, NEED NEED to get yourself into the PUA community. I wouldn't normally recommend that but you are so lacking in confidence that I think their dogma would teach you charisma. People are NOT born charismatic... It is a learned trait and it comes from personal accomplishments (whatever an accomplishment may be) and goals met.

[YoungCosmo]

Well I'm too drunk to comment on those posts that are specifically about my problems and consequently will wait til tomorrow when sober to do so. So I am still left with a sense of the objectivity of "confidence" having not been presented. Something specific comes in mind:

On this forum on another thread someone was saying it's better for a guy to assume a girl is interested than not. Isn't that bad? Doesn't that equate to mentally slandering a girl when they AREN'T interested? Isn't that vanity? And isn't vanity borne out of insecurity? Somehow I feel like if the answer is yes to these questions that ideas of men being altruistic is kinda out the window, that nice things are done towards girls that are pretty because they're pretty and then none of it is honest.

[basilandthyme]

^^^ over thinking.

[katyk]

Hi, fairly new poster here so don't know if you have posted loads of stuff. First impression? You are full of self pity. "Look at the hand I've been dealt? why aren't I witty? interesting? successful?" and so on. So what is good looking then? Do you think all women find the same person attractive? Do all women go for looks? Do you consider say Rod Stewart attractive - cos I don't but he looks fun! OK so you probably think its o.k. for celebs as they can attract anyone for who they are but most don't start out as celebs, they got there by believing in themselves.

I can tell you now it is not an excuse when I say women will fall in love with guys who make them laugh and who have an outward air of confidence (no matter what inside). Confidence CAN be learnt also but not outside the comfort zone. Initially, you find some interests that you like and once you become good at it you mix with people of similar interests and before long you will be giving them your expert opinion/advice. You are focussing solely on finding a partner and that is not good. Once you start to enjoy life you will become more interesting and happy within. You know that song....."The greatest love of all" Its all about loving oneself first and foremost (not in a narcissistic way). Once you do that you will find others will love you too.

[TheEvilJester]

I know how you feel. I can very much relate. I've never had much of a self-esteem. "No self-esteem" would probably have been pretty accurate until around my college age, and only now am I even developing what some might consider a healthy self-esteem. So, I can definitely relate and understand how you feel.

The thing that guys like you and I need to realize is that being confident is NOT the same thing as being cocky. Being cocky is, for example, acting like you are the hottest, most awesome thing walking on two legs. Being confident is realizing that you are a good person, and that any woman would be lucky to have you. Being confident is realizing that any woman would be lucky to have you, being cocky is acting like they should feel honored to get the chance.

Do you get what I mean? The fact is, guys like you and I, we truly DO have a lot to offer people, even if we may not realize it ourselves. The only thing you can really do, at least in that regard, is to carry yourself as though you do have confidence. Again, confidence, NOT cockiness. A lot of people will give you advice such as "If you can't love yourself, nobody is going to be able to love you." That is great advice..... for a "normal" person. But, for guys like us who lack a healthy self-esteem, that advice might as well just be saying "Nobody will ever love you" because that is how that advice makes us feel.

Yes, we SHOULD love ourselves, but that is a life-long struggle for guys like us. So, in the meantime the trick is to at least act like you do. Sort of like a "fake it until you make it" kinda thing. When you give yourself a chance, people (women included) will like being around you. In turn, that will start to help your confidence because you will be able to see yourself through their eyes.

Trust me, it will never be easy. I wish I could say it would. It's taken me my whole life to have some level of self-esteem. I used to look in the mirror and see a monster. A hideous, ugly creature that I could not imagine how anybody could ever love. It's taken me my whole life to realize.... you know something..... Not only am I NOT ugly, but I'm not a bad looking dude. Just remember, it isn't like it is a magic spell. I'm still struggling with not finding anybody, alternating between feeling lonely and feeling just downright F'ing sick of it all and wanting to just be alone after all. It won't be easy, but in the end it will be worth the struggle.

I wish I could offer more promising advice, but for guys like us it just will always be a struggle. But I promise you, if you fight the good fight, the rewards are eventually worth all your hard effort. Heck, even if for nothing else other than the fact that you will learn to appreciate you, even if it feels like nobody else does yet. Good luck, my friend.

[YoungCosmo]

Great replies all around but I thought I should start with a (too late because I've now had the self pity accusation made against me): I was thinking of this problem the other day from a detached, objective POV.I think this question has importance, especially since there is a religious application and also a question that is worth considering to be a good citizen and in general good human being: The religious aspect of it is, does confidence violate that deadly sin called vanity? Doesn't a (referring to the Judeo-Christian concept of god) person have to be humble always and does having a healthy amount of confidence violate that?

So no, it's not really a self-pity party.

[YoungCosmo]

I know how you feel. I can very much relate. I've never had much of a self-esteem. "No self-esteem" would probably have been pretty accurate until around my college age, and only now am I even developing what some might consider a healthy self-esteem. So, I can definitely relate and understand how you feel.

The thing that guys like you and I need to realize is that being confident is NOT the same thing as being cocky. Being cocky is, for example, acting like you are the hottest, most awesome thing walking on two legs. Being confident is realizing that you are a good person, and that any woman would be lucky to have you. Being confident is realizing that any woman would be lucky to have you, being cocky is acting like they should feel honored to get the chance.

A lot of people will give you advice such as "If you can't love yourself, nobody is going to be able to love you." That is great advice..... for a "normal" person. But, for guys like us who lack a healthy self-esteem, that advice might as well just be saying "Nobody will ever love you" because that is how that advice makes us feel.

Yes, we SHOULD love ourselves, but that is a life-long struggle for guys like us.

That was pretty profound. People who use platitudes as advice are usually pretty nice but oblivious and often insensitive and I agree with what you said here.